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Old 07-25-2012, 06:33 PM   #76
BillB
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
Neither was the rematch.

Legitimate punch, legitimate knockdown, terrible reffing.
I don't agree that it was a legitimate punch or knockdown.

Let's say for the sake of argument it was legit.

Walcott gave the fight to Clay. Liston was not counted out. In fact the count never started.

Surely, this is valid grounds to suspect a fix. A fix can include buying the officials. It may or may not require a fighter taking a dive.

Last edited by BillB; 07-25-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:33 PM   #77
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Liston tried to win the first clay fight but with only the patterson and whestphal blow outs behind him Sonny was at least 3 years out of practice in competative fights to do himself justice. Quit before he was stopped. Not ready.

The second fight sonny out and out did not want to be there. could never have won in that state of mind. Knew himself he'd lost too much ground before he got started. Just came for the payday.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:09 PM   #78
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Sonny Liston had 'no' incentive' to win the fight in Miami Beach.

He was just going through the 'motions'.

His daily training routine, was
A) '5' minutes on the speed bag (a performance for the boxing writers)
B) '5' minutes of skipping rope
C) '5' minutes on the heavy bag
D) 3 Rounds of sparring

He didn't even do any 'roadwork'.

Fight Publicist, Harold Conrad.
'I watched Sonny in Miami Beach for 2-weeks. The only time he did roadwork, was when he
walked into Surfside to the 'Beauty Parlors', to see the young girls. I never saw him run anywhere.
Honestly, I don't think he could have made a mile without falling down.'

'He sure looked like a guy who didn't have a worry. He wasn't concerned about Cassius Clay, and he
acted like he didn't have a care in the world. It was almost like, he knew what was going to happen,
a very devil-may-care attitude.'
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:11 AM   #79
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

wheres this from?
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:47 AM   #80
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

I think the people who react most strongly against threads that discuss the possibility of the Miami fight being fixed simply haven't researched or lived through the era.

As has already been said, the boxing authorities at the time sure thought there was something amiss with Sonny Liston.
Several boxing commentators at the time thought the fight smelled.
There was an investigation.
Liston's contracts and management situation was discovered to be as confused as it ever was.
On top of that, Liston and his team had set up or bought in to the closed circuit TV promotional company, 'Inter-continental promotions Inc.'.
That company went on to promote Ali v Patterson in Las Vegas.
This all happened in the years following speculation that Liston could make very little money holding the title !
(Go check the primary sources, this was all being talked about BEFORE Clay came along).

Cassius Clay's Louisville sponsoring group did not want him to fight Sonny Liston as per 1962 and 1963. They thought Clay would make them a lot of money but that Liston could ruin his young career. They had a change of heart when Clay beat Cooper ??
It seems unlikely.
Maybe Angelo Dundee convinced them.

This all checks out with the primary sources.
It's not the revisionist version that people are so comfortable with.

Ash Resnick is mentioned in the newspapers often leading up to the fight, as an 'advisor' of Liston's.
People should google 'Irving Ash Resnick'. The man was a gambling shark, mob guy. His whole existence was based on gambling rackets and angles.
Liston was a degenerate gambler.

How can this not raise eyebrows ?

People often (unfairly) assume that every achievement of Primo Carnera's career was built on fixed fights, with hardly a fraction of the circumstantial evidence that might suggest that Clay-Liston 1 may have been pre-arranged.

I'm not saying it WAS fixed, but it certainly belongs in the canon of boxing matches that deserve to be under suspicion.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:09 AM   #81
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

In the vast majority of cases it makes good sense to go with the most simple explanation.

Liston got beaten up in the first fight.

Jersey joe made a right mess of proceedings in the second after a legitimate knockdown.

The bigger question is, had ali been sent to a corner, and sonny given those extra few seconds, how the fight would have panned out?
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:18 AM   #82
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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In the vast majority of cases it makes good sense to go with the most simple explanation.

Liston got beaten up in the first fight.

Jersey joe made a right mess of proceedings in the second after a legitimate knockdown.

The bigger question is, had ali been sent to a corner, and sonny given those extra few seconds, how the fight would have panned out?
Liston shouldn't have been on the floor like that in the first place.

Walcott made a mess of proceeding because Ali was running around shouting at Liston "Get up and fight you bum !"

Ali was doing that probably because he was overcome with DISGUST that Liston would flop down like that so early in the fight.
Ali was the guy who threw the punch, and instantly he seemed to KNOW that Liston was making a meal of it.

The second fight was quite an obvious tank job.
Ali's immediate reaction says it all.
Ali didn't want to win on such an obvious flop.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:08 AM   #83
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Liston shouldn't have been on the floor like that in the first place.

Walcott made a mess of proceeding because Ali was running around shouting at Liston "Get up and fight you bum !"

Ali was doing that probably because he was overcome with DISGUST that Liston would flop down like that so early in the fight.
Ali was the guy who threw the punch, and instantly he seemed to KNOW that Liston was making a meal of it.

The second fight was quite an obvious tank job.
Ali's immediate reaction says it all.
Ali didn't want to win on such an obvious flop.
Well the obvious answer is he's on the floor because he got dropped by a punch.

Physical evidence on youtube shows the punch in slow motion - high definition, landing right on the button and snapping liston's head back.

Furthermore we know ali is a 15 stone trained boxer.

So i'm happy that the knockdown was legitimate but jersey did a crap job officiating it.

Now what evidence do you have to the contrary?
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:50 AM   #84
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Well the obvious answer is he's on the floor because he got dropped by a punch.

Physical evidence on youtube shows the punch in slow motion - high definition, landing right on the button and snapping liston's head back.

Furthermore we know ali is a 15 stone trained boxer.

So i'm happy that the knockdown was legitimate but jersey did a crap job officiating it.

Now what evidence do you have to the contrary?

The fact that about 90% of the audience - as well as the man who landed the punch - seemed to think it wasn't much of a blow.

It's really hard to argue with Ali's reaction. It tells everything.
He was absolute livid that Liston had laid down from such an inoffensive blow, hence all his running around the ring screaming "get up and fight you bum !".
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:42 AM   #85
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

I really believe Ali knew that wasn't a KO blow... I agree his reaction makes it pretty clear he thought something was fishy with Sonny and was even heard screaming... nobody is going to believe this.. get up!! Even if it did land hard enough to knock sonny down... it certainly didn't land hard enough to KEEP him down... He CHOOSE to stay down and be "counted out" and that makes it a dive all the same.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:07 PM   #86
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Because in Febraury 1964,,,,,,,

Cassius Clay was considered 'A Joke'.

A weak punching, dancing 'fancy boy'.

What exactly 'did you see' between June 18, 1963 (when Clay fought Henry Cooper) and
February 24, 1964 (8-months later) that told you Cassius Clay would defeat Sonny Liston on February 25, 1964.

Look it up.

Please don't tell everybody you knew Cassius Clay was that good in February 1964.

And that you knew Sonny Liston was that far gone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Cassius Clay was considered a joke"

So. This is what is known as being wrong. History is full of guys who were wrong in big ways--and not just boxing history.

"Please don't tell everybody you knew Cassius Clay was that good in February 1964."

"And that you knew Sonny Liston was that far gone."

Why should I say that? I thought Liston would win. I was wrong also. Wrong big time.

Admitting that opinions, whether mine or the "experts" don't rule and changing one's opinion when evidence proves your opinion wrong is necessary.



**Off topic but I recently read that the "boy genius" at the MGM film studio in the 1920's, Irving Thalberg, said that sound was a fad which would not last.

It is one thing for the expert of experts, Thalberg, to be wrong in the 1920's. It is really bizarre for someone in the year 2011 to maintain that sound movies will never last because Thalberg said so in 1927.

Last edited by edward morbius; 07-26-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #87
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
The fact that about 90% of the audience - as well as the man who landed the punch - seemed to think it wasn't much of a blow.

It's really hard to argue with Ali's reaction. It tells everything.
He was absolute livid that Liston had laid down from such an inoffensive blow, hence all his running around the ring screaming "get up and fight you bum !".
Your evidence is a ****y reaction by a guy nicknamed the louisville lip

Surprisingly that isn't enough to convince me that the fight was a fix.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:44 PM   #88
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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I really believe Ali knew that wasn't a KO blow... I agree his reaction makes it pretty clear he thought something was fishy with Sonny and was even heard screaming... nobody is going to believe this.. get up!! Even if it did land hard enough to knock sonny down... it certainly didn't land hard enough to KEEP him down... He CHOOSE to stay down and be "counted out" and that makes it a dive all the same.
He chose to stay down because ali was stood over him. He beat the count given to him quite easily.

Terrible ref job. Though given that sonny had been caught cold and ali was blisteringly quick, he probably would have done enough to force a stoppage.
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:35 AM   #89
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Your evidence is a ****y reaction by a guy nicknamed the louisville lip

Surprisingly that isn't enough to convince me that the fight was a fix.
It wasn't a "****y reaction".
Ali blatantly beckoned Liston to get up and had a look of anger and disgust on his face.
He was heard to shout "Get up and fight you bum ! No one's gonna believe this !".
After the fight ended he walked to his own brother Rahaman Ali and said to him "He laid down."
The vast majority of the audience, who were all sat very close in a small hall, thought it was a dive.

It was obviously fake.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:09 AM   #90
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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It wasn't a "****y reaction".
Ali blatantly beckoned Liston to get up and had a look of anger and disgust on his face.
He was heard to shout "Get up and fight you bum ! No one's gonna believe this !".
After the fight ended he walked to his own brother Rahaman Ali and said to him "He laid down."
The vast majority of the audience, who were all sat very close in a small hall, thought it was a dive.

It was obviously fake.
Do you have any primary sources for those quotes?

Could you also provide evidence that the majority of fans thought it was fake?

Because watching the fight on youtube I don't hear these comments, I see a guy dropping a man made out to be the incredible hulk, I see him react fitting to his nickname, I see him ecstatic at securing another victory.

You say it's obviously fake but you're still to provide concrete evidence to me.
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