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Old 07-27-2012, 08:53 AM   #91
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Don't jump so quick on the 'second fight'.

The 'fight' was a 'nothing fight'.

The 'next' Heavyweight Championship bout after Clay vs. Liston II 'had' to take place in Las Vegas,
where the 'money boys' were.

Sonny Liston was 'banned' from fighting in Las Vegas as 'his boxing license was pulled'
in August 1964.

Sonny Liston 'could not' win the fight in Lewiston, Maine.

November 22, 1965 - Muhammad Ali vs Floyd Patterson (Convention Center, Las Vegas)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As part of being a 'good boy' and following instructions, Sonny Liston was given a house in
Las Vegas (at The Stardust Country Club) by Las Vegas mega-mogul Kirk Kerkorian. Of course,
Sonny could not move into the house until a few months after the Ali vs. Patterson fight,
when things cooled down.

In February 1966, Sonny moved to Las Vegas to retire, as the local 'Strip Squirre'. But as usual, with
many former Champion, a few bad investments and gambling losses depleted Sonny of his earnings.

Tax-liens and personal lawsuits put Sonny is a bad financial situation. By mid-1966, Sonny had to
comeback to get out of debt.

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Old 07-27-2012, 09:03 AM   #92
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Do you have any primary sources for those quotes?

Could you also provide evidence that the majority of fans thought it was fake?
Walcott himself said, "When Liston went down, I tried to get Clay to a neutral corner. He wouldn''t budge, he just stood over Liston glowering, his teeth clenched, saying 'Get up, get up - get up and fight !"

Reported by the AP May 27, 1965

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Quote:
Because watching the fight on youtube I don't hear these comments, I see a guy dropping a man made out to be the incredible hulk, I see him react fitting to his nickname, I see him ecstatic at securing another victory.



That's a novel interpretation. Ali's immediate body language was an obvious display of anger and frustration,imo. He swipes his arm, beckoning Liston to get up, like "**** this!". He looks absolutely livid.

As JJ Walcott (who was standing right there) said, "teeth clenched", "glowering" .... in other words, ANGRY.

Why would he be angry at Liston if he truly felt he'd hit Liston a legit blow ?

Far from being "ecstatic at securing another victory" his initial feelings were to be pissed off that Liston was robbing him of the chance to secure an untarnished victory.

If you want to believe it was little and Ali was doing some sort of happy victory dance, that's up to you.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:11 AM   #93
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Walcott himself said, "When Liston went down, I tried to get Clay to a neutral corner. He wouldn''t budge, he just stood over Liston glowering, his teeth clenched, saying 'Get up, get up - get up and fight !"

Reported by the AP May 27, 1965

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That's a novel interpretation. Ali's immediate body language was an obvious display of anger and frustration,imo. He swipes his arm, beckoning Liston to get up, like "**** this!". He looks absolutely livid.

As JJ Walcott (who was standing right there) said, "teeth clenched", "glowering" .... in other words, ANGRY.

Why would he be angry at Liston if he truly felt he'd hit Liston a legit blow ?

Far from being "ecstatic at securing another victory" his initial feelings were to be pissed off that Liston was robbing him of the chance to secure an untarnished victory.

If you want to believe it was little and Ali was doing some sort of happy victory dance, that's up to you.
I hope you can see the difference between:

'Get up, get up - get up and fight !'

And


He was heard to shout "Get up and fight you bum ! No one's gonna believe this !".

I'm genuinely staggered that you are trying to use the reaction of a guy known as the louisville lip to prove your wild theory.

You must realise how weak that is to base something on?
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:20 AM   #94
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Rocky Marciano - On the Clay vs. Liston II fight.

Regarding the knockdown, 'Sonny actually fell forward, because he had bad balance'.
'I swear to God, I thought he fell, because I did not hear the sound of a 'whack' from a punch'.

'Later, George Chuvalo came up to me and said, Rocky do you believe this s**t. That was no f***ing punch.
I told him, that I have never seen anything like it. I hope Sonny got a good deal, because no one will ever
promote a fight with him again'.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:37 AM   #95
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I hope you can see the difference between:

'Get up, get up - get up and fight !'

And


He was heard to shout "Get up and fight you bum ! No one's gonna believe this !".
That has been reported too.
Several versions of roughly the same thing were reported.



Quote:
I'm genuinely staggered that you are trying to use the reaction of a guy known as the louisville lip to prove your wild theory.
I don't have a 'wild theory'.
My thoughts on the second Ali-Liston fight are pretty much standard.

I'm not sure what his nickname "Lousville Lip" has got to do with running around in apparent disgust and telling opponents to get up and fight.
It was the ONLY time Ali ever did so, to my knowledge.
You make believe like it was his normal act.


Quote:
You must realise how weak that is to base something on?
We go through life reading situations and making judgments on what is happening.
We deduce things.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:43 AM   #96
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

even liston wasn't dumb enough to fix a fight this badly. the counter punch landed and liston was off-balance (feet in the air) and went down.

BORKED
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:47 AM   #97
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston




I like the way Liston crawls all the ground with his arms outstretched in front of him on his way down.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:53 AM   #98
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
That has been reported too.
Several versions of roughly the same thing were reported.





I don't have a 'wild theory'.
My thoughts on the second Ali-Liston fight are pretty much standard.

I'm not sure what his nickname "Lousville Lip" has got to do with running around in apparent disgust and telling opponents to get up and fight.
It was the ONLY time Ali ever did so, to my knowledge.
You make believe like it was his normal act.




We go through life reading situations and making judgments on what is happening.
We deduce things.
Show me a primary source backing up your claim then.

No, the standard is that ali won a fight. Wild theories entail talk of conspiracy.

Because that was his persona, a ****y little shit. How many people did he call a big ugly bear? How many people did he call a gorilla? How many times had he done the rope-a-dope?

A ****y little shit drops the supposedly unstoppable liston with a punch in the first round, what would you expect him to do?

Yes but we try to deduce things based on some evidence.

If I see a car drive past does it mean it will rain tomorrow?
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:01 AM   #99
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Show me a primary source backing up your claim then.

No, the standard is that ali won a fight. Wild theories entail talk of conspiracy.

Because that was his persona, a ****y little shit. How many people did he call a big ugly bear? How many people did he call a gorilla? How many times had he done the rope-a-dope?

A ****y little shit drops the supposedly unstoppable liston with a punch in the first round, what would you expect him to do?

Yes but we try to deduce things based on some evidence.

If I see a car drive past does it mean it will rain tomorrow?

Look, Walcott saw him "glowering" with his "teeth clenched". He saw an angry Ali telling Liston to get up.
That's what I see.

You see something else, I don't know what. "A ****y little shit" or "The Louisville Lip" experiencing the ecsatasy of victory ?? right ?

That's your interpretation.
I don't see it.

The whole thing LOOKED fake to me. It looked as if Ali thought the punch wasn't a legit KD punch, to me.

Dozens of people in the audience saw in the same way as I do.

Like I said a few posts back, if you want to interpret it differently and don't see it as fake, that's entirely up to you.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #100
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

For those of you who don't think the 'second bout' was fixed.

Look where the damn thing took place.

Lewiston, Maine

Nobody else in the country wanted it. 'Nobody'.

Lewiston, Maine was desperate for anything, and Sam Michael (small time promoter) was shilled into taking it.

1) As for the money, it was all in the bank with the Closed Circuit Operations.

2) The 'live gate' money was a non-issue ($200,000), as the promoter got all 100% of it.

3) Both boxers had no percentage of the live gate receipts.

4) The State of Maine (District Attorney) had no funds, to properly investigate a 'fix'.

5) After the fight, the State of Maine just wanted the fight and it's aroma to go away.

6) Even the Moose knew the 'fix was in'

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Old 07-27-2012, 12:53 PM   #101
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Look, Walcott saw him "glowering" with his "teeth clenched". He saw an angry Ali telling Liston to get up.
That's what I see.


You see something else, I don't know what. "A ****y little shit" or "The Louisville Lip" experiencing the ecsatasy of victory ?? right ?

That's your interpretation.
I don't see it.

The whole thing LOOKED fake to me. It looked as if Ali thought the punch wasn't a legit KD punch, to me.

Dozens of people in the audience saw in the same way as I do.

Like I said a few posts back, if you want to interpret it differently and don't see it as fake, that's entirely up to you.
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:24 PM   #102
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Fight 1

Jack Nilon, Robert Nilon and Attornery; Garland Sherry (from Liston's Camp) 'cut the deal' to have
Sonny lose.

William Faversham Jr. was the main player (from Clay's) camp, along with Lyons Brown and
Attorney; Gordon Byron Davidson.

"The Main Deal" - Sonny Liston and Inter-Continental-Promotions got 'options' to promote
Cassius Clay's next '3' Title fights.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fight 2

Robert Nilon and Garland Sherry 'cut the deal' to have Sonny lose, again.

Kirk Kerkorian was the Las Vegas 'quiet man', who made sure that Sonny did
the 'right thing'. Kerkorian was representing the other Las Vegas Strip Casino associates.

William Faversham, was again the 'main man' as Cassius Clay's negotiator, with
Lyons Brown and Attorney; Gordon Byron Davidson.

'The Main Deal' - Las Vegas wanted the 'next' Heavyweight Championship Bout, and needed
Sonny Liston to step aside. Kirk Kerkorian cut a 'deal' with Sonny Liston and Robert Nilon,
which included a house, 2 new Cadillac's, as well as taking care of Sonny's gambling debts in Las Vegas.

Also, Sonny still had some legal problems to deal with in Philadelphia and Denver. William Faversham Jr.
and Gordon Byron Davidson agreed to use their influence to square up these matters for Sonny, as long
as he stepped aside.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 07-27-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:46 PM   #103
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Old 07-27-2012, 05:56 PM   #104
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Fight 1

Jack Nilon, Robert Nilon and Attornery; Garland Sherry (from Liston's Camp) 'cut the deal' to have
Sonny lose.

William Faversham Jr. was the main player (from Clay's) camp, along with Lyons Brown and
Attorney; Gordon Byron Davidson.

"The Main Deal" - Sonny Liston and Inter-Continental-Promotions got 'options' to promote
Cassius Clay's next '3' Title fights.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fight 2

Robert Nilon and Garland Sherry 'cut the deal' to have Sonny lose, again.

Kirk Kerkorian was the Las Vegas 'quiet man', who made sure that Sonny did
the 'right thing'. Kerkorian was representing the other Las Vegas Strip Casino associates.

William Faversham, was again the 'main man' as Cassius Clay's negotiator, with
Lyons Brown and Attorney; Gordon Byron Davidson.

'The Main Deal' - Las Vegas wanted the 'next' Heavyweight Championship Bout, and needed
Sonny Liston to step aside. Kirk Kerkorian cut a 'deal' with Sonny Liston and Robert Nilon,
which included a house, 2 new Cadillac's, as well as taking care of Sonny's gambling debts in Las Vegas.

Also, Sonny still had some legal problems to deal with in Philadelphia and Denver. William Faversham Jr.
and Gordon Byron Davidson agreed to use their influence to square up these matters for Sonny, as long
as he stepped aside.


It becomes easier to figure out what was going on when you follow the money and the paper trail.
The way 'the boys' set up Ali v Patterson in Vegas was a master stroke.

Where do you think Resnick came into the deal for the first fight ?
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:30 PM   #105
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

In 1963, both Jack Nilon and Robert Nilon were having difficulty keeping Sonny under control while he was out in Denver.

The Nilon Brothers had a successful Concessionaire Business in Maryland,
Nilon Brothers Catering Engineers, and the bad publicity was affecting their
business.

Plus, Sonny was 'sucking' the bank dry with constant demands for money.

When the Nilon Brothers asked for outside help, Irving 'Ash' Resnick, a no-nonsense
Las Vegas Gambler and Sports Director at the Thunderbird Hotel was brought in.

Ash Resnick and Thunderbird Hotel had set up Sonny's Training Camp in June 1963, before
the '2nd' patterson fight. That's where Ash and Sonny became close.

Ash took control, of the day-to-day Sonny Liston itinerary from mid-1963 thru early-1964,
right up until the night of the February 1964 Championship Bout in Miami Beach.

Ash Resnick, though out-spoken and charismatic, was very tight-lipped leading up
to the February 25th bout, especially when in Miami Beach at the Fountainbleau Hotel
(where he stayed and set up shop).

Ash never let out if he bet on Sonny, leading up to the fight. After the bout, he 'played'
the role, and said he lost alot of money betting on his friend with the 'short odds'.

What anyone should know about Ash Resnick, he was 'one smart cookie', who always
knew the 'inside scoop' when gambling.

'The Skinny', is that Ash Resnick did very well on the outcome on 'both' the Liston vs. Clay I
and Clay vs. Liston II Championship bouts.

After the bout, Ash was still friends with Sonny, but their relationship was kept at a distance
from March 1964 and thru Febrauary 1966, to avoid any heat.

In the State of Florida in 1963 and 1964, Ash Resnick was banned from every horse racing track.

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