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Old 07-24-2012, 10:51 AM   #46
Legend X
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Dempsey was the first test tube baby of the emerging powers of 20th century media, a constructed star in an artificial galaxy.

He was 80% media creation, 20% fighter. Still, he remains in my top-50 heavyweights, between Ruslan Chagaev and Mike Dokes. Not bad for an indigent from the wilds of Colorado.


Is Chagaev above or below Dempsey and Dokes ?
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:51 AM   #47
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

Seamus,

How do you think Don ****ell would have done in the 1920s? Since you know your britsh fighters
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:39 AM   #48
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Dempsey was the first test tube baby of the emerging powers of 20th century media, a constructed star in an artificial galaxy.

He was 80% media creation, 20% fighter. Still, he remains in my top-50 heavyweights, between Ruslan Chagaev and Mike Dokes. Not bad for an indigent from the wilds of Colorado.
If Dempsey was the media's prototype for the unbeatable, demi-god heavyweight, Ali was their masterpiece, and Tyson was their encore.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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If Dempsey was the media's prototype for the unbeatable, demi-god heavyweight, Ali was their masterpiece, and Tyson was their encore.
The mythical "unbeatable demi god heavyweight", can be traced back a lot earlier than Dempsey's time.

It is probably as old as boxing itself.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:24 PM   #50
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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The mythical "unbeatable demi god heavyweight", can be traced back a lot earlier than Dempsey's time.

It is probably as old as boxing itself.
The media machine was not quite there, though. Thus, radio broadcasts, the birth of the paparazzi leading to million dollar gates. Rickard is the greatest figure of the fight game in the first two decades of the century.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:25 PM   #51
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Is Chagaev above or below Dempsey and Dokes ?
I have Dokes at 47, Dempsey at 48 and Chagaev at 49.

I pretty much consider Ruslan a finished work as he is really on the downside of his career.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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The media machine was not quite there, though. Thus, radio broadcasts, the birth of the paparazzi leading to million dollar gates. Rickard is the greatest figure of the fight game in the first two decades of the century.
I honestly think that the media machine was always there.

Don't forgett thast some of Tom Cribb's fights generated more column inches than the Battle of Trafalgar.

The unbeatable heavyweight represents something deeply engrained in the human psyche, and peope will always be drawn to it, even though the best heavyweight that ever breathed will only ever be a person to fill the mask.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #53
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

IMO no, while I would have loved to see them fight, there is nothing that I see in Wills that would convince me that he would beat Dempsey. I think Wills could be hit and was pretty much there to be hit, not a Willard type but enough that Dempsey would have gotten to him. IMO
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Me and Suzie are dicks! We're clowning, aggressive stupid dicks.

And Janitor and Burt, are era biassed pussies.

And Legend Y Chromosone and Pepe le Bitch, are subtle, passive aggressive, venomous assholes.

Pussies don't like dicks because pussies get ****ed by big black slick dicks. But big black dicks also **** assholes. Assholes that just want to shit on Muhammad Ali. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way, via newspaper decision. But the only thing that can **** an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is they **** too much or **** when it isn't appropriate. And it takes a ***** to show them that. But sometimes pussies can be so full of era biassed shit that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are only an inch and half away from assholes and like the same fighters. I don't know much about this crazy classic forum, but I do know this.... If you don't let us dicks **** these assholes, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit.
Sadly sir, no one appreciates a good Team America reference anymore.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:00 PM   #55
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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I honestly think that the media machine was always there.

Don't forgett thast some of Tom Cribb's fights generated more column inches than the Battle of Trafalgar.

The unbeatable heavyweight represents something deeply engrained in the human psyche, and peope will always be drawn to it, even though the best heavyweight that ever breathed will only ever be a person to fill the mask.
Your treading on my specialty here, or at least what was my specialty in back in school many years ago. The emerging technology of the media beginning in the Aspirin Age (post-WWI) took it to a new level, the rise of celebrity, newsreels, radio, increasingly centralized and competitive periodicals. It helped create the wonderful celebrity-obsessed world we live in today.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:27 PM   #56
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Your treading on my specialty here, or at least what was my specialty in back in school many years ago. The emerging technology of the media beginning in the Aspirin Age (post-WWI) took it to a new level, the rise of celebrity, newsreels, radio, increasingly centralized and competitive periodicals. It helped create the wonderful celebrity-obsessed world we live in today.
Surely, obsession with celebrity is as old as the printing press. Take for example the scandal and controvesy surrounding King George IV. Hello magazine is nothing new.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:34 PM   #57
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

No chance.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:18 PM   #58
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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He's argued tirelessly that Dempsey was 'scared of blacks' (by way of some prejudiced racist belief that they are all the same?) in the past.
I'd be pleasantly surprised and amused to see ChrisP refer to Dempsey as "highly skilled".
I think Dempsey was way ahead of his time. He was the first heavyweight with a bob-and-weave style who came forward explosively and in bursts. He invented that style, he didn't learn it from an 18th century racist version of Cus d'Amato.

And yes, he looks very impressive on film.

But here is my beef. His accomplishments aren't as impressive as his moves on film. A great fighter, yes. But to me he didn't prove himself to be worthy of a top10 spot. Let me explain why. Look at the other three great HW swarmers/punchers: Frazier, Marciano and Tyson.

Frazier: cleaned out the division '65-'73. He beat the best fighter of the era before him (Ali), and the best fighter of the era after him (Ali). Only lost to Foreman and Ali.

Marciano: Tore through the heavyweight division like a knife through butter. Cleaned up all opponents between '48 and '56. Fought all significant boxers of his era and gave rematches to avenge his close wins. Still holds the record KO% against rated opposition and in title defenses to this day, more than half a century later.

Tyson: Like Marciano he destroyed the heavyweight division and unified the titles. He is the only one to ever knock out Larry Holmes, despite the latter continuing his heavyweight campaign until well in his 50's. Tyson does have a losing record against the best of his time: 1-3. For a swarmer he also has great longivity, being ranked in the top10 from 1986 to 2003, the exception being when he was incarcerated.

Dempsey: His strings of wins between '17 and '19 is very impressive. However, his title reign can only be described as lacklustre, being inactive up to three full years and having heavyweight title fights over 10 rounds (which has never happened before or has, since). He never fought two of the three best opponents of his time (Wills & Greb) and lost twice to the third (Tunney). He was at the twilight of his career by that time, but the fact remains he never proved himself to be Tunney's superior. On his way up, he never fought Langford/Mcvey/Jeannette/Johnson. Yes, I think he'd have whooped them, but he never proved it.

So, compared to the other great swarmers, I think he doesn't stack up well. He's a top15 heavyweight for sure. Lower top10 on a good day, but that's as far as I'd go.

Regarding him being scared of blacks: I can't remember saying that, but I might have during my younger, more aggressive years. I admit that that's harsh. But remember that I'm a product of my environment, and the environment at ESB '04-'07 was that Dempsey was this fearless monster who'd beat everyone during his prime. Well here are the facts:

1. In 1916, Lester Johnson broke Dempsey's ribs and by all accounts, gave him hell.

2. He never fought a black man after that.

3. He avoided the #1 contender for longer than any other boxing champion every has, any weight class. That contender happens to be black.

4. During a 4-round exhibition, Jeanette is a late-minute substitute and enters the ring to Dempsey's surprise. His reaction was to walk out of the ring while being booed and according to a writer, "Giving boxing a black eye". This judgment was made by the writer and the crowd, despite being a heavily racist time in Dempsey's favor.

Now, I think Dempsey was smart to not take that fight. He shouldn't have. But would the (by this board then claimed) 'ardest man have walked out on an exhibition against a 38 year old opponent? You can imagine my reaction to this.

I hope that clears things up.

Peace,
CP
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #59
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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Surely, obsession with celebrity is as old as the printing press. Take for example the scandal and controvesy surrounding King George IV. Hello magazine is nothing new.
The impulse is as old as the inveterate Adam. It is the scale of the machinery and its power to manipulate this impulse that has changed dramatically.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:14 PM   #60
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Default Re: Should Harry Wills be rated above Jack Dempsey?

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I think Dempsey was way ahead of his time. He was the first heavyweight with a bob-and-weave style who came forward explosively and in bursts. He invented that style, he didn't learn it from an 18th century racist version of Cus d'Amato.

And yes, he looks very impressive on film.

But here is my beef. His accomplishments aren't as impressive as his moves on film. A great fighter, yes. But to me he didn't prove himself to be worthy of a top10 spot. Let me explain why. Look at the other three great HW swarmers/punchers: Frazier, Marciano and Tyson.

Frazier: cleaned out the division '65-'73. He beat the best fighter of the era before him (Ali), and the best fighter of the era after him (Ali). Only lost to Foreman and Ali.

Marciano: Tore through the heavyweight division like a knife through butter. Cleaned up all opponents between '48 and '56. Fought all significant boxers of his era and gave rematches to avenge his close wins. Still holds the record KO% against rated opposition and in title defenses to this day, more than half a century later.

Tyson: Like Marciano he destroyed the heavyweight division and unified the titles. He is the only one to ever knock out Larry Holmes, despite the latter continuing his heavyweight campaign until well in his 50's. Tyson does have a losing record against the best of his time: 1-3. For a swarmer he also has great longivity, being ranked in the top10 from 1986 to 2003, the exception being when he was incarcerated.

Dempsey: His strings of wins between '17 and '19 is very impressive. However, his title reign can only be described as lacklustre, being inactive up to three full years and having heavyweight title fights over 10 rounds (which has never happened before or has, since). He never fought two of the three best opponents of his time (Wills & Greb) and lost twice to the third (Tunney). He was at the twilight of his career by that time, but the fact remains he never proved himself to be Tunney's superior. On his way up, he never fought Langford/Mcvey/Jeannette/Johnson. Yes, I think he'd have whooped them, but he never proved it.

So, compared to the other great swarmers, I think he doesn't stack up well. He's a top15 heavyweight for sure. Lower top10 on a good day, but that's as far as I'd go.

Regarding him being scared of blacks: I can't remember saying that, but I might have during my younger, more aggressive years. I admit that that's harsh. But remember that I'm a product of my environment, and the environment at ESB '04-'07 was that Dempsey was this fearless monster who'd beat everyone during his prime. Well here are the facts:

1. In 1916, Lester Johnson broke Dempsey's ribs and by all accounts, gave him hell.

2. He never fought a black man after that.

3. He avoided the #1 contender for longer than any other boxing champion every has, any weight class. That contender happens to be black.

4. During a 4-round exhibition, Jeanette is a late-minute substitute and enters the ring to Dempsey's surprise. His reaction was to walk out of the ring while being booed and according to a writer, "Giving boxing a black eye". This judgment was made by the writer and the crowd, despite being a heavily racist time in Dempsey's favor.

Now, I think Dempsey was smart to not take that fight. He shouldn't have. But would the (by this board then claimed) 'ardest man have walked out on an exhibition against a 38 year old opponent? You can imagine my reaction to this.

I hope that clears things up.

Peace,
CP
Chris ,we disagree on Dempsey, but you always present a reasoned argument so I am happy to differ from you.
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