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Old 07-26-2012, 07:49 AM   #1
MrBumboclart
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Default Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Just how many controversial fights did Ali have?

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won. They gave it to the younger fighter with potential (Clay).

02. Sonny Liston 1 & 2. Both rumours of a fix.

03. Henry Cooper. The glove tearing.

04. Ernie Terrell. Thumbing Terrell in the eye which changed the whole flow of the fight.

05. Joe Frazier II. Was allowed to hold all night - referee did nothing.

06. George Foreman. Rumours of a fix.

07. Ron Lyle. Premature stoppage - Lyle was ahead on all cards.

08. Joe Frazier III. Ali wanted to quit, Frazier did not, Frazier was forced to quit, Ali won.

09. Jimmy Young. Total robbery.

10. Ken Norton III. Total robbery.

I count 10 controversial fights in Ali's career.

How do you feel about each one and does it change his legacy at all in your opinion?
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:09 AM   #2
SolomonDeedes
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Fine, I'll bite:

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won. They gave it to the younger fighter with potential (Clay).

No. Every reasonably impartial observer saw this as a close, competitive bout. Jones did not clearly win.


02. Sonny Liston 1 & 2. Both rumours of a fix.

There is no evidence of a fix in either fight. People thinking the second fight was rigged is understandable as it's such a bizarre spectacle, but as in most cases the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Liston was genuinely knocked down, could have got up, and didn't because Ali was refusing to move away from him and Walcott never started a count.


03. Henry Cooper. The glove tearing.

The myth that Ali got significant extra time to recover has been thoroughly discredited.


04. Ernie Terrell. Thumbing Terrell in the eye which changed the whole flow of the fight.

Like a lot of beaten fighters, Terrell had an excuse for losing. In reality damage around his eye was visible as early as the second round from absorbing repeated jabs. The idea that this turned a possible win into the one-sided beating which actually took place is unrealistic.


05. Joe Frazier II. Was allowed to hold all night - referee did nothing.

This one is actually true. But the referee clearly wasn't as big an Ali fan as all that, as his ending the round early when Frazier was dazed on the ropes illustrates. In Manila the following year, the referee determinedly prevented holding and Ali won anyway.


06. George Foreman. Rumours of a fix.

Foreman's claims would have more credibility if he had picked a single excuse and stuck with it. Instead it was doctored water or loose ropes or deliberate dehydration depending on his mood. The man himself probably summed it up best while in a different mood: "Everyone need an excuse. I couldn't live without an excuse. So I was picking them out of the air. 'Oh yeah, my shoes were too big.' Anything."


07. Ron Lyle. Premature stoppage - Lyle was ahead on all cards.

Lyle was slightly ahead on the cards. If he'd somehow survived the eleventh it would have been a 2-point round for Ali, which would have put him ahead. In any case Lyle was slumped on the ropes making no move to defend himself. Any decent referee would have stopped it.


08. Joe Frazier III. Ali wanted to quit, Frazier did not, Frazier was forced to quit, Ali won.

The suggestion here is that Muhammad Ali, after all he faced and overcame in the ring, was about to become the only man in history to lose the title by refusing to come out for the final round after giving his opponent a one-sided beating in the previous round. He had been saying since the 10th that he felt like he was dying, so he may well have mumbled something about not being able to go on as he slumped onto his stool. It doesn't mean that after a minute's rest he'd actually have quit, any more than he did when he said to cut the gloves off against Liston 11 years earlier.


09. Jimmy Young. Total robbery.

The ageing Ali boxed poorly and it was a dull fight, but not a robbery. There were very few clean punches landed by either man and very few rounds clearly won.


10. Ken Norton III. Total robbery.

As the referee, both ringside judges, the Associated Press, the United Press and even Joe Frazier agreed, this was a close fight and not a robbery.


What this comes down to is if you accept uncritically every internet rumour of foul play and every opponent's excuse for losing, and pronounce every close fight a robbery, you can make anyone's career look pretty mediocre.

Ali was never the untouchable superman that popular culture sometimes depicts. He was human and fallible and even at his peak he would get hit and occasionally lose a round. And yet he had a career which only Joe Louis can rival in terms of longevity and sheer volume of achievement. The idea that it is possible to do all that through a mixture of poor sportsmanship, dumb luck and shady behind the scenes dealings is a fantasy.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBumboclart View Post
Just how many controversial fights did Ali have?

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won. They gave it to the younger fighter with potential (Clay).

02. Sonny Liston 1 & 2. Both rumours of a fix.

03. Henry Cooper. The glove tearing.

04. Ernie Terrell. Thumbing Terrell in the eye which changed the whole flow of the fight.

05. Joe Frazier II. Was allowed to hold all night - referee did nothing.

06. George Foreman. Rumours of a fix.

07. Ron Lyle. Premature stoppage - Lyle was ahead on all cards.

08. Joe Frazier III. Ali wanted to quit, Frazier did not, Frazier was forced to quit, Ali won.

09. Jimmy Young. Total robbery.

10. Ken Norton III. Total robbery.

I count 10 controversial fights in Ali's career.

How do you feel about each one and does it change his legacy at all in your opinion?
Ali did not want 2 quit in Frazier #3 . He wanted 2 cheat , like in Cooper #1 . Did he tell Mirena 2 cut his glove or his gloves ?
Anyway he collapsed in2 unconsciousness later after being announced as d winner , so if Frazier had 2 functioning eyes 2 begin with .. it would have been Frazier TKO15 Ali . 2b fair , Ali was 33 at d time . But ppl don't know how drastic d outcome would have been in Cooper #1 and Foreman under legit circumstances , and that he in noway deserved a win in neither d Doug Jones fight nor d Chuvalo #1 fight .

Some of Ali's highest profile opponents were hindered 2 begin with : Joe Frazier by having only 1 functioning I , Henry Cooper & Jerry Quarry by being so prone 2 cuts . Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams by age , Williams literally shot (1 kidney instead of 2 due 2 it) , and both far from great even whilst in their prime years prior 2 facing Ali .
Floyd Patterson had n injury in his back in their 1st fight , was 37 years old in their rematch and was always undersized @ HW except vs Archie Wright .

Wright , Patterson , Cooper , Jones , Ellis , Bonavena , Quarry were all undersized heavies .


Ali used 2 :
1) have physical advantages over most opponents (all except Foreman)
2) cheat and enjoy Mirena's crimes (Cooper #1 , Zaire 1974 and probably loaded gloves)
3) receive gifts from bribed judges (Alonzo Johnson , Jones , Chuvalo , Norton , Young , Shavers)
4) receive tolerance from bribed referees
5) enjoy professional wrestling fixes in his favor , i m convinced Liston #1 & #2 were not d only 1s .


Some legacy .
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolomonDeedes View Post
Fine, I'll bite:

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won. They gave it to the younger fighter with potential (Clay).

No. Every reasonably impartial observer saw this as a close, competitive bout. Jones did not clearly win.


02. Sonny Liston 1 & 2. Both rumours of a fix.

There is no evidence of a fix in either fight. People thinking the second fight was rigged is understandable as it's such a bizarre spectacle, but as in most cases the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Liston was genuinely knocked down, could have got up, and didn't because Ali was refusing to move away from him and Walcott never started a count.


03. Henry Cooper. The glove tearing.

The myth that Ali got significant extra time to recover has been thoroughly discredited.


04. Ernie Terrell. Thumbing Terrell in the eye which changed the whole flow of the fight.

Like a lot of beaten fighters, Terrell had an excuse for losing. In reality damage around his eye was visible as early as the second round from absorbing repeated jabs. The idea that this turned a possible win into the one-sided beating which actually took place is unrealistic.


05. Joe Frazier II. Was allowed to hold all night - referee did nothing.

This one is actually true. But the referee clearly wasn't as big an Ali fan as all that, as his ending the round early when Frazier was dazed on the ropes illustrates. In Manila the following year, the referee determinedly prevented holding and Ali won anyway.


06. George Foreman. Rumours of a fix.

Foreman's claims would have more credibility if he had picked a single excuse and stuck with it. Instead it was doctored water or loose ropes or deliberate dehydration depending on his mood. The man himself probably summed it up best while in a different mood: "Everyone need an excuse. I couldn't live without an excuse. So I was picking them out of the air. 'Oh yeah, my shoes were too big.' Anything."


07. Ron Lyle. Premature stoppage - Lyle was ahead on all cards.

Lyle was slightly ahead on the cards. If he'd somehow survived the eleventh it would have been a 2-point round for Ali, which would have put him ahead. In any case Lyle was slumped on the ropes making no move to defend himself. Any decent referee would have stopped it.


08. Joe Frazier III. Ali wanted to quit, Frazier did not, Frazier was forced to quit, Ali won.

The suggestion here is that Muhammad Ali, after all he faced and overcame in the ring, was about to become the only man in history to lose the title by refusing to come out for the final round after giving his opponent a one-sided beating in the previous round. He had been saying since the 10th that he felt like he was dying, so he may well have mumbled something about not being able to go on as he slumped onto his stool. It doesn't mean that after a minute's rest he'd actually have quit, any more than he did when he said to cut the gloves off against Liston 11 years earlier.


09. Jimmy Young. Total robbery.

The ageing Ali boxed poorly and it was a dull fight, but not a robbery. There were very few clean punches landed by either man and very few rounds clearly won.


10. Ken Norton III. Total robbery.

As the referee, both ringside judges, the Associated Press, the United Press and even Joe Frazier agreed, this was a close fight and not a robbery.


What this comes down to is if you accept uncritically every internet rumour of foul play and every opponent's excuse for losing, and pronounce every close fight a robbery, you can make anyone's career look pretty mediocre.

Ali was never the untouchable superman that popular culture sometimes depicts. He was human and fallible and even at his peak he would get hit and occasionally lose a round. And yet he had a career which only Joe Louis can rival in terms of longevity and sheer volume of achievement. The idea that it is possible to do all that through a mixture of poor sportsmanship, dumb luck and shady behind the scenes dealings is a fantasy.
OK then at the least.....
Cooper was robbed by Ali having his glove torn
Frazier was cheated in the second fight by the holding
Lyle was robbed by a premature stoppage
Norton was robbed in the third fight - clearly
Young was robbed in their fight - clearly

Those have no speculation or rumours. That is 5 fights Ali controversially won and maybe did not deserve to win (Norton + Young especially).
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Clay's glove had a large visibly tear in it before Cooper knocked him down.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Ron Lyle should have thrown some punches if he didn't want to be stopped.
Lyle went reeling from a very good right hand and never responded.

If anything, what Ali did to Ron Lyle only makes me wonder whether Foreman, for all his 'power', even knew how to punch.
Ron Lyle was clearly not granite chinned animal, Ali knocked him silly with one stiff right. Foreman needed a zillion punches to stop that guy.
Foreman had no snap in his punches at all that night.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

In my book Muhammad only received two questionable victories in his career. The Jimmy Young and third Ken Norton fights. As the earlier poster said,the one with Young was a poor fight with neither man landing many meaningful punches. A draw would have been quite fair. I give Norton the third fight by 9-6 in rounds. However,many of those rounds were close ones.


Neither fight was a robbery.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBumboclart View Post
OK then at the least.....
Cooper was robbed by Ali having his glove torn
Frazier was cheated in the second fight by the holding
Lyle was robbed by a premature stoppage
Norton was robbed in the third fight - clearly
Young was robbed in their fight - clearly

Those have no speculation or rumours. That is 5 fights Ali controversially won and maybe did not deserve to win (Norton + Young especially).
Cooper still was cut badly, it wouldn't have mattered either way
Frazier threw low blows as well
Lyle was badly hurt and was on his way out
It was a close fight, no robbery With Norton
I agree with Young but once again it was no robbery
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
Ali did not want 2 quit in Frazier #3 . He wanted 2 cheat , like in Cooper #1 . Did he tell Mirena 2 cut his glove or his gloves ?
Anyway he collapsed in2 unconsciousness later after being announced as d winner , so if Frazier had 2 functioning eyes 2 begin with .. it would have been Frazier TKO15 Ali . 2b fair , Ali was 33 at d time . But ppl don't know how drastic d outcome would have been in Cooper #1 and Foreman under legit circumstances , and that he in noway deserved a win in neither d Doug Jones fight nor d Chuvalo #1 fight .

Some of Ali's highest profile opponents were hindered 2 begin with : Joe Frazier by having only 1 functioning I , Henry Cooper & Jerry Quarry by being so prone 2 cuts . Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams by age , Williams literally shot (1 kidney instead of 2 due 2 it) , and both far from great even whilst in their prime years prior 2 facing Ali .
Floyd Patterson had n injury in his back in their 1st fight , was 37 years old in their rematch and was always undersized @ HW except vs Archie Wright .

Wright , Patterson , Cooper , Jones , Ellis , Bonavena , Quarry were all undersized heavies .


Ali used 2 :
1) have physical advantages over most opponents (all except Foreman)
2) cheat and enjoy Mirena's crimes (Cooper #1 , Zaire 1974 and probably loaded gloves)
3) receive gifts from bribed judges (Alonzo Johnson , Jones , Chuvalo , Norton , Young , Shavers)
4) receive tolerance from bribed referees
5) enjoy professional wrestling fixes in his favor , i m convinced Liston #1 & #2 were not d only 1s .


Some legacy .

Retard.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

the holding against frazier; frazier did a poor job of stopping him and its genarally not frazier's best performance. that said, if frazier wins that fight there is a whole new history.

none of the others mean much(maybe to norton but not to ali, his legacy was made by then)
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
probably loaded gloves)
Any actual evidence of this, or is it just more BS?
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBumboclart View Post
OK then at the least.....
Cooper was robbed by Ali having his glove torn
Frazier was cheated in the second fight by the holding
Lyle was robbed by a premature stoppage
Norton was robbed in the third fight - clearly
Young was robbed in their fight - clearly

Those have no speculation or rumours. That is 5 fights Ali controversially won and maybe did not deserve to win (Norton + Young especially).
ALL of them are speculation, or flat-out untruths.

Clay got exactly five extra seconds due to the torn glove against Cooper.
Frazier was a very effective foul-artist himself against Ali in all three fights.
Lyle was making no effort to fight back. The stoppage was appropriate.
Ali-Norton III was a close fight. Get out with this "clearly" nonsense.
Ali-Young was a close fight. Get out with this "clearly" nonsense.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBumboclart View Post
Just how many controversial fights did Ali have?

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won
I stopped reading here... I`ve learned thru experience on here that once the utter shite starts that early in a post, it generally only gets worse.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolomonDeedes View Post
Fine, I'll bite:

01. Doug Jones. Jones clearly won. They gave it to the younger fighter with potential (Clay).

No. Every reasonably impartial observer saw this as a close, competitive bout. Jones did not clearly win.


02. Sonny Liston 1 & 2. Both rumours of a fix.

There is no evidence of a fix in either fight. People thinking the second fight was rigged is understandable as it's such a bizarre spectacle, but as in most cases the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Liston was genuinely knocked down, could have got up, and didn't because Ali was refusing to move away from him and Walcott never started a count.


03. Henry Cooper. The glove tearing.

The myth that Ali got significant extra time to recover has been thoroughly discredited.


04. Ernie Terrell. Thumbing Terrell in the eye which changed the whole flow of the fight.

Like a lot of beaten fighters, Terrell had an excuse for losing. In reality damage around his eye was visible as early as the second round from absorbing repeated jabs. The idea that this turned a possible win into the one-sided beating which actually took place is unrealistic.


05. Joe Frazier II. Was allowed to hold all night - referee did nothing.

This one is actually true. But the referee clearly wasn't as big an Ali fan as all that, as his ending the round early when Frazier was dazed on the ropes illustrates. In Manila the following year, the referee determinedly prevented holding and Ali won anyway.


06. George Foreman. Rumours of a fix.

Foreman's claims would have more credibility if he had picked a single excuse and stuck with it. Instead it was doctored water or loose ropes or deliberate dehydration depending on his mood. The man himself probably summed it up best while in a different mood: "Everyone need an excuse. I couldn't live without an excuse. So I was picking them out of the air. 'Oh yeah, my shoes were too big.' Anything."


07. Ron Lyle. Premature stoppage - Lyle was ahead on all cards.

Lyle was slightly ahead on the cards. If he'd somehow survived the eleventh it would have been a 2-point round for Ali, which would have put him ahead. In any case Lyle was slumped on the ropes making no move to defend himself. Any decent referee would have stopped it.


08. Joe Frazier III. Ali wanted to quit, Frazier did not, Frazier was forced to quit, Ali won.

The suggestion here is that Muhammad Ali, after all he faced and overcame in the ring, was about to become the only man in history to lose the title by refusing to come out for the final round after giving his opponent a one-sided beating in the previous round. He had been saying since the 10th that he felt like he was dying, so he may well have mumbled something about not being able to go on as he slumped onto his stool. It doesn't mean that after a minute's rest he'd actually have quit, any more than he did when he said to cut the gloves off against Liston 11 years earlier.


09. Jimmy Young. Total robbery.

The ageing Ali boxed poorly and it was a dull fight, but not a robbery. There were very few clean punches landed by either man and very few rounds clearly won.


10. Ken Norton III. Total robbery.

As the referee, both ringside judges, the Associated Press, the United Press and even Joe Frazier agreed, this was a close fight and not a robbery.


What this comes down to is if you accept uncritically every internet rumour of foul play and every opponent's excuse for losing, and pronounce every close fight a robbery, you can make anyone's career look pretty mediocre.

Ali was never the untouchable superman that popular culture sometimes depicts. He was human and fallible and even at his peak he would get hit and occasionally lose a round. And yet he had a career which only Joe Louis can rival in terms of longevity and sheer volume of achievement. The idea that it is possible to do all that through a mixture of poor sportsmanship, dumb luck and shady behind the scenes dealings is a fantasy.
Great post.

Personally, I think its more explanation than he deserved but I couldn`t have put it better myself.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali and the controversial fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBleeder View Post
Any actual evidence of this, or is it just more BS?
D faces of many of his opponents after their fights ?
Cooper #1&#2 , Frazier #3 , Quarry #1&#2 and others like Billy Daniels and more .

A man who cuts & swells so many so often is n automatic suspect .

Remember Charles' face after Rocco #1 ?
Billy Collins Jr.'s face after Resto ?
Cotto's face after Margarito ?


In Ali's case it happened more often than with any1 else .
Regarding his glove in Cooper #1 however u choose 2 treat it screams crime :
1) it was torn pre fight and a orn glove is much more effective at cutting
2) it was loaded and d foreign substance inserted in2 needed a tear in 1st place
3) d foreign substance was inserted , but d tear was fixed but it was not like new anymore , and prone 2 tear again
4) it was torn between rds in order 2 help Ali cut Cooper and this way it passed d referee's inspection of pre fight .
5) it was torn between rds in order 2 buy Ali recuperation time and this way it passed d referee's inspection of pre fight .


*) some combination of d above
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