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Old 07-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #1
Bokaj
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Default For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

It seems to me that Ali gets most of the real heavy animosity (often tinged with conspiracy theories) from other Americans - and probably white Americans that see themselves as conservatives. Is there truth to this? Are views on Ali to a degree down to that "cultural war" thing that Yanks got going on? Is it making a silly appearance in these matters as well?

I know that at least one of Ali's biggest detractors (Longhorn) on this forum also makes anti-Obama threads like there's no tomorrow. And a newcomer went on a current thread about Shavers-Quarry how "bolsheviks" hide the truth about Ali's corrupt career or some such. How about the rest?
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

Ironic if truth .... because it seems Ali has been more of a conservative than a "liberal"/leftist.

Ali publicly supported Republican candidates. He supported Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

Don't know for sure, but I'd bet that for some it is his politics of what, forty some years ago that they have a problem with- his draft refusal is probably number one. For others it might be his unorthodox style or others still his mouth, his mistreatment of Joe Frazier and the like. I see him as one of the greatest heavyweights I've had the pleasure of watching in the ring. Also, as quite gullible in his early devotion to the Elizha Mohammed and Don King. I was just a tadpole at the time, but the times were so different- difficult for someone who's growing up in these times to understand. I have to admit to sometimes having difficulty separating a man from what he could do in the ring or elsewhere, but I try.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Chinxkid View Post
Don't know for sure, but I'd bet that for some it is his politics of what, forty some years ago that they have a problem with- his draft refusal is probably number one. For others it might be his unorthodox style or others still his mouth, his mistreatment of Joe Frazier and the like. I see him as one of the greatest heavyweights I've had the pleasure of watching in the ring. Also, as quite gullible in his early devotion to the Elizha Mohammed and Don King. I was just a tadpole at the time, but the times were so different- difficult for someone who's growing up in these times to understand. I have to admit to sometimes having difficulty separating a man from what he could do in the ring or elsewhere, but I try.
I was in my 20s during Ali's first incarnation. He was widely viewed as being an obnoxious, loud mouthed clown. He was viewed that way because that's what he was.
I recognized his skill as a fighter, but I didn't have a lot of respect for him as a person.

He was a little better when he came back.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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I was in my 20s during Ali's first incarnation. He was widely viewed as being an obnoxious, loud mouthed clown. He was viewed that way because that's what he was.
I recognized his skill as a fighter, but I didn't have a lot of respect for him as a person.

He was a little better when he came back.
I'd heard some of the old timers, older than you, say pretty much the same thing- some of them ex fighters themselves. But one thing I also heard was a lot of them come around after a while, after they saw that he could fight. The consensus seemed to be, Yeah, he's a loud mouth, yeah he's obnoxious, but he can fight so we can overlook it. I always got the feeling that a lot of that loud mouth, round-calling stuff was an attempt to gain a psychological advantage. I think for Ali, the fight started as soon as it was signed for.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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I'd heard some of the old timers, older than you, say pretty much the same thing- some of them ex fighters themselves. But one thing I also heard was a lot of them come around after a while, after they saw that he could fight. The consensus seemed to be, Yeah, he's a loud mouth, yeah he's obnoxious, but he can fight so we can overlook it. I always got the feeling that a lot of that loud mouth, round-calling stuff was an attempt to gain a psychological advantage. I think for Ali, the fight started as soon as it was signed for.
And most of those same people who rail against Ali as a loudmouth -- some of them racists who would use the term 'uppity' to describe him as a black American who didn't know his place if they were honest and didn't mind being seen for who and what they are -- have salivated over Tyson talking about making an opponent his girlfriend or eating their children, or for Duran despite his disrespect to many of his opponents.

They cry to the heavens about how Ali treated Frazier and Terrell and Patterson, then post about Duran's mastery against Davey Moore, whom he thumbed in the eye, or praise a Tyson who bit an opponent, tried to break people's arms and broke just about every rule in the game.

The same ass-clowns who espouse Ali 'conspiracy theories' don't find it curious that a mobbed up Jake LaMotta, who had been involved in at least one fixed fight (by his own admission, and probably many more), won his title against a champion with an impeccible record who had an 'injury' and quit on his stool -- and just happened to die in a plane crash before he could win his title back. Or that Jack Dempsey had allegedly been involved in at least one fixed fight earlier in his career and was accused of using loaded gloves in winning the title (with his promoter, Tex Rickard, as one of the judges -- if things weren't already crooked enough), and who had title opponents invented out of whole cloth to protect him from facing live opposition.

Of course, LaMotta and Dempsey were white. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

I'm not accusing all Ali detractors of being racists, far from it, but there are posters here of a certain age who will always hold it against Ali (they'd prefer to call him Cassius, of course, but would never call Dempsey 'William Harrison' even though he stole a greater boxer's first name) because he was on the front lines of the rise of blacks to equality in the U.S. He stood up to the government and stood up for his people. There are some people who feel if it weren't for the Alis and Martin Luther Kings of the world, black people in America would have stayed "in their place" and that's the way some of these Ali detractors would rather have it.

Some people of this mindset will accept and embrace other black boxers, because those boxers didn't change society the way Ali did, didn't rub their noses in it.

And there are younger posters who don't understand that these attacks on Ali aren't based on facts but on race-based venom, but they see the accusations and don't understand the true context and take up the cause and try to further it.

These posters know who they are and they know who I'm talking about.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

Muhammad Ali had nothing to do with Martin Luther King in the 1960s.

Ali followed the black supremacist and separatist Elijah Muhammad. They hated the idea of integration. They despised the idea that people of different races could lived together in peace. Their views were more in line with those of the KKK.

That's all been changed by the revisionist history, I know.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

Im British, but im sure anyone can love him and hate him at the same time. Many of both the pro and anti views on Ali are political. For someone who hates him for his Vietnam stance, another loves him for that very same reason.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
It seems to me that Ali gets most of the real heavy animosity (often tinged with conspiracy theories) from other Americans - and probably white Americans that see themselves as conservatives. Is there truth to this? Are views on Ali to a degree down to that "cultural war" thing that Yanks got going on? Is it making a silly appearance in these matters as well?

I know that at least one of Ali's biggest detractors (Longhorn) on this forum also makes anti-Obama threads like there's no tomorrow. And a newcomer went on a current thread about Shavers-Quarry how "bolsheviks" hide the truth about Ali's corrupt career or some such. How about the rest?
First, I am a white American and I resent the implication that I am racist because I do not think highly of Ali.
I do not think highly of Ali because I am a boxing fan, with 37 years of participation in some form or the other, and I think he is the most overrated fighter in history. That is from a purely boxing standpoint, and I think that including him as a top 10 all-time p4p fighter is ludicrous. I think that Larry Holmes, joe louis, and others, would have beaten him easily. Eddie Futch, who trained Frazier and Norton to beat him, thought the same.
I think Ali was an asshole because of the way he conducted himself, by introducing pro wrestling antics into a dignified sport, and for the way he treated his opponents. most of whom were black as well. He made acting like a clown popular, even expected, in an activity I care about. He was a pompous jackass, and time pays.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

My only reason for not liking him is that I am a Frazier fan....Not sure if that makes me a detractor, as I seldom bash him IMHO. I do think there is a tendancy to overrate his greatness, and I am not talking about whether he is #1 or 2 (I rate him 2 @ HW an 11 P4P), as much as Hypothetical H2H....No Ali fan will ever concede that tough stylistic matches abound for him, and constantly say if he was prime he would have had an easy time with them....

Actually the longer I write this I realize that I actually do like Ali (well as much as a die hard Frazier fan can anyway)...it is his fans that irritate the heck out of me!

Last edited by PhillyPhan69; 07-27-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

For anybody to try and disect Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali would be impossible.

The guy himself didn't even know who he was.

Now back in 1964, he was pretty much hated by the establishment.

And for those who think he was praised by the black community, he was not.

Even 'mob associated' Sonny Liston was better liked than Cassius Clay.

As for the 'political aspect', it is completely overblown. Mainly, because if Cassius Clay
wasn't drafted into the U.S. Army, we would have never ever heard of his views on
Vietnam, or how other poor folks got unjustly drafted into the Army.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Muhammad Ali had nothing to do with Martin Luther King in the 1960s.

Ali followed the black supremacist and separatist Elijah Muhammad. They hated the idea of integration. They despised the idea that people of different races could lived together in peace. Their views were more in line with those of the KKK.

That's all been changed by the revisionist history, I know.
I never meant to suggest that Ali or the Black Muslims had anything to do with MLK Jr., just that there are those who resent both because of the change they helped bring about.

That the most-recognized and revered American in the world for a period of time was a black man, and one who did not keep his mouth shut and allow whitey to pat him on the head -- as earlier black heavyweight champs had to do in their times -- grated on many at the time and it still reverberates today.

Graynot, you claim you dislike Ali for bringing 'wrestling antics' into a dignified sport.' Look up Tex Rickard's history. Look at the exploitation of racial hatred and the creation of the "Great White Hope" and tell me about dignified -- and then compare it to wrestling, as Rickard's tactic was to create a hero (in wrestling they're called babyfaces) and a villain (in wrestling, a heel).

Ali didn't invent promotion and hype. He just used it to enrich himself. You say he cheapened boxing, but what about an Olympian with no professional experience vaulted into a title fight to cheapen the heavyweight title -- yet Cus D'Amato is a god to some. You talk about boxinglosing dignity because of Ali, but I guess Dempsey was a real man while he was partying and going Hollywood and doing, well, everything BUT boxing for his 3-year vacation while he held the belt up and kept it away from deserving challengers without ever putting on a pair of gloves -- while Ali's 3-year hiatus was forced by him refusing to be drafted into an unjust war and standing on principle.

Ali fought every able challenger -- Frazier and Norton not once but THREE TIMES -- while Dempsey and other white champs of his era refused to risk themselves against men because of the color of their skin.

And you say boxing was 'dignified' before Ali came along.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
First, I am a white American and I resent the implication that I am racist because I do not think highly of Ali.
By "conservative", I honestly only meant just that, not racist.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
For anybody to try and disect Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali would be impossible.

The guy himself didn't even know who he was.

Now back in 1964, he was pretty much hated by the establishment.

And for those who think he was praised by the black community, he was not.

Even 'mob associated' Sonny Liston was better liked than Cassius Clay.

As for the 'political aspect', it is completely overblown. Mainly, because if Cassius Clay
wasn't drafted into the U.S. Army, we would have never ever heard of his views on
Vietnam, or how other poor folks got unjustly drafted into the Army.
Do you consider yourself conservative then? And by that I don't mean racist, just conservative as in the general political viewpoint.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

I have zero respect for conservative politicians, and zero respect for liberal politicians. I do not think much more of Ali, because he was a loud mouth and an asshole for most of his life. He only gained dignity when he lost the ability to talk shit. He is overrated and to justify his exaltation, guys like Norton, Patterson, Shavers, Young, etc are called great. Great because they fought Ali who is great because he fought them.
I give Ali credit because, once his reflexes were gone and his lack of skill on display, he stood in and took his beatings. It stuns me to hear people talk about how his victory over Foreman proves how great Ali was...Actually, it proves how stupid, ringwise, Foreman was. Honestly, I don't know if Foreman was as good as Buddy Baer.
There is a cult of personality that has grown up around Ali, in this country, that astounds me.
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