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Old 07-28-2012, 12:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
I have zero respect for conservative politicians, and zero respect for liberal politicians. I do not think much more of Ali, because he was a loud mouth and an asshole for most of his life. He only gained dignity when he lost the ability to talk shit. He is overrated and to justify his exaltation, guys like Norton, Patterson, Shavers, Young, etc are called great. Great because they fought Ali who is great because he fought them.
I give Ali credit because, once his reflexes were gone and his lack of skill on display, he stood in and took his beatings. It stuns me to hear people talk about how his victory over Foreman proves how great Ali was...Actually, it proves how stupid, ringwise, Foreman was. Honestly, I don't know if Foreman was as good as Buddy Baer.
There is a cult of personality that has grown up around Ali, in this country, that astounds me.
Could you start a thread on this with a poll, please? I would find the results interesting. I might even alter my own list accordingly.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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"No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters."
Quote:
"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn't matter which color does the hating. It's just plain wrong."
A white man hating on black people is called a racist, but a black man hating on white people is called a hero because he 'stands up for his people'?
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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And most of those same people who rail against Ali as a loudmouth -- some of them racists who would use the term 'uppity' to describe him as a black American who didn't know his place if they were honest and didn't mind being seen for who and what they are -- have salivated over Tyson talking about making an opponent his girlfriend or eating their children, or for Duran despite his disrespect to many of his opponents.

They cry to the heavens about how Ali treated Frazier and Terrell and Patterson, then post about Duran's mastery against Davey Moore, whom he thumbed in the eye, or praise a Tyson who bit an opponent, tried to break people's arms and broke just about every rule in the game.

The same ass-clowns who espouse Ali 'conspiracy theories' don't find it curious that a mobbed up Jake LaMotta, who had been involved in at least one fixed fight (by his own admission, and probably many more), won his title against a champion with an impeccible record who had an 'injury' and quit on his stool -- and just happened to die in a plane crash before he could win his title back. Or that Jack Dempsey had allegedly been involved in at least one fixed fight earlier in his career and was accused of using loaded gloves in winning the title (with his promoter, Tex Rickard, as one of the judges -- if things weren't already crooked enough), and who had title opponents invented out of whole cloth to protect him from facing live opposition.

Of course, LaMotta and Dempsey were white. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

I'm not accusing all Ali detractors of being racists, far from it, but there are posters here of a certain age who will always hold it against Ali (they'd prefer to call him Cassius, of course, but would never call Dempsey 'William Harrison' even though he stole a greater boxer's first name) because he was on the front lines of the rise of blacks to equality in the U.S. He stood up to the government and stood up for his people. There are some people who feel if it weren't for the Alis and Martin Luther Kings of the world, black people in America would have stayed "in their place" and that's the way some of these Ali detractors would rather have it.

Some people of this mindset will accept and embrace other black boxers, because those boxers didn't change society the way Ali did, didn't rub their noses in it.

And there are younger posters who don't understand that these attacks on Ali aren't based on facts but on race-based venom, but they see the accusations and don't understand the true context and take up the cause and try to further it.

These posters know who they are and they know who I'm talking about.
You don't know what the hell you are talking about...So if I who was around during those days and BEFORE as millions of others are "sad ass Clowns", respectfully you are the one tarring people like me as racist's and bigots, so I say to you as one of the "sad ass clowns", what do you know about those days that I and millions of other AMERICANS who lived then
that make you the EXPERT...So the Nation of Islam were the good guys and I and millions of my comrades who served our nation are the bad guys ? You are an ignorant person trying to inject your politics on me by calling I and others CLOWNS...You sir haven't in your whole body, the compassion and experience that I have in my finger...
P.S. who the f--k are you to call me a racist ? You of all the posters since I'm on ESB truly disgust me, by your filthy lying accusations coming from nowhere.
P.S. I saw and loved more great black fighters who were decent guys, not calling guys like Frazier an " Uncle Tom, or use the adjective "gorilla"...
You sir are a scoundrel to inject your leftwing agenda on a boxing forum
painting "decent" guys like myself who think differently than you...
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

The very best magicians can pull off a trick right in front of you that you still don't understand, no matter how much time you put into it. They can show you that 2+2=5, and make you believe it. The facts don't matter, it's the illusion that sells.

That's the beauty with Ali and his image. His popularity is owed, in no small part, to white liberals who helped turn him into a symbol of rebellion and counter culture. Even today, people assume that he must be hated by conservatives and that progressive, reasonable people are fans. To be a white Frazier fan at the time meant you either had to be from Philly or were yourself a conservative racist, wanting your "Uncle Tom" to win.

But sitting there, right in front of anyone who puts 10 minutes into a Google search, are multiple sources both in writing and on video that has Ali saying the kind of thing that would have a Ku Klux Klansmen testifying "Amen!". His political opinions were purely that of a stereotypical conservative white racist - for segregation, against interracial relationships and integration, racially insulting black guys....all of it.

And yet, it's the people who question that that get called racist, or are assumed to be conservative white people. And today, he's still an icon among liberals. Much of what those conservatives are accused of thinking has already been said out loud by Ali himself.

Much like Helen Keller, the image and symbolism of Ali is powerful enough that the man's opinions and what he's actually said is inconsequential. The parts that don't fit that ideal image and agenda conveniently get deleted, ignored, or excused.

2+2=5. And if you question that, maybe you just don't like numbers.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
The very best magicians can pull off a trick right in front of you that you still don't understand, no matter how much time you put into it. They can show you that 2+2=5, and make you believe it. The facts don't matter, it's the illusion that sells.

That's the beauty with Ali and his image. His popularity is owed, in no small part, to white liberals who helped turn him into a symbol of rebellion and counter culture. Even today, people assume that he must be hated by conservatives and that progressive, reasonable people are fans. To be a white Frazier fan at the time meant you either had to be from Philly or were yourself a conservative racist, wanting your "Uncle Tom" to win.

But sitting there, right in front of anyone who puts 10 minutes into a Google search, are multiple sources both in writing and on video that has Ali saying the kind of thing that would have a Ku Klux Klansmen testifying "Amen!". His political opinions were purely that of a stereotypical conservative white racist - for segregation, against interracial relationships and integration, racially insulting black guys....all of it.

And yet, it's the people who question that that get called racist, or are assumed to be conservative white people. And today, he's still an icon among liberals. Much of what those conservatives are accused of thinking has already been said out loud by Ali himself.

Much like Helen Keller, the image and symbolism of Ali is powerful enough that the man's opinions and what he's actually said is inconsequential. The parts that don't fit that ideal image and agenda conveniently get deleted, ignored, or excused.

2+2=5. And if you question that, maybe you just don't like numbers.
Rock, a great and lucid post on your part...I DETEST politics,and I DETEST
REVERSE RACISM, and for an Ali to be a hero today, whilst a decent human being Joe Frazier who was the target of such vile hateful remarks by an Ali
while being a member of a group much like the KKK, galls me no end...And for the poster who vomited this bile on ESB, from out of nowhere, and accused posters like myself who think differently than he does as bigots and sad assed clowns...But I know people of his ilk are always on the "attack", and must be confronted...
P.S. I saw Clay /Ali in the Olympics defeating the great Aussie LH Tony Madden by close decision at MSG, and I saw the FOTC in 1971 MSG.
He was a helluva boxer and had courage, but give me a Joe Louis, An Ezzard Charles, a Joe Frazier, an Alexis Arguello, an Archie Moore, etc
dignified guys who didn't demean their opponents trying to make a living in
the tough sport we love...Cheers R.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:52 AM   #21
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Rock, a great and lucid post on your part...I DETEST politics,and I DETEST
REVERSE RACISM, and for an Ali to be a hero today, whilst a decent human being Joe Frazier who was the target of such vile hateful remarks by an Ali
while being a member of a group much like the KKK, galls me no end...And for the poster who vomited this bile on ESB, from out of nowhere, and accused posters like myself who think differently than he does as bigots and sad assed clowns...But I know people of his ilk are always on the "attack", and must be confronted...
P.S. I saw Clay /Ali in the Olympics defeating the great Aussie LH Tony Madden by close decision at MSG, and I saw the FOTC in 1971 MSG.
He was a helluva boxer and had courage, but give me a Joe Louis, An Ezzard Charles, a Joe Frazier, an Alexis Arguello, an Archie Moore, etc
dignified guys who didn't demean their opponents trying to make a living in
the tough sport we love...Cheers R.
This one always kills me, B. It's like being so used to talking about lung cancer that you start referring to brain cancer as "reverse cancer". It's all just cancer, brother.
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
This one always kills me, B. It's like being so used to talking about lung cancer that you start referring to brain cancer as "reverse cancer". It's all just cancer, brother.
Professor Zoom was a reverse racist hence the nickname Reverse Flash. And if you don't get that reference I'll cry BE, many hot tears.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:03 AM   #23
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Ironic if truth .... because it seems Ali has been more of a conservative than a "liberal"/leftist.

Ali publicly supported Republican candidates. He supported Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
i m only partially surprised .
2 me it seems that d correlation between being n Ali fanboy 2day and a conservative (regardless of nationality) r positively correlated and not weakly so .

Only a man of bias and lie will keep ignoring d truth about Ali's career and worship him .

And these ppl tend 2b conservatives and not by coincidence .

Last edited by frankenfrank; 07-28-2012 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:10 AM   #24
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Could you start a thread on this with a poll, please? I would find the results interesting. I might even alter my own list accordingly.
At that point in his career, foreman was a big, strong, dumb guy that just threw punches. He didn't know or care where they went. He regularly punched himself out. Find me a definable difference between that and Buddy baer that favors Foreman.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

The political landscape at the time of Ali-Frazier I certainly resulted in a trend where whether you supported Ali or Frazier largely stemmed from your general political outlook.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:32 AM   #26
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
At that point in his career, foreman was a big, strong, dumb guy that just threw punches. He didn't know or care where they went. He regularly punched himself out. Find me a definable difference between that and Buddy baer that favors Foreman.
wrong . Foreman's offense was his defense . That was Y he rarely got hit in re2rn . That is Y he got hit much less often than Ali was . His opponents either chose d back foot or were 4ced on it . Like holyfield kept Tyson's movement d rear way . 4man's opponents either respected him or started respecting him quickly after tasting his bombs . Ali's smarter opponents , such as Jones , Frazier and 4man showed no respect and pressed 4ward .
Doug Jones' problems were 2 : he was undersized and cheated by d judges .
Frazier's problems were that he was undersized and had only 1 functioning I and n injured arm he somehow used 2 his advantage in n unconventional way like a left handed fighter employs his stance 2 his benefit but that injury also had its disadvantages . Also Ali was allowed 2 clinch a lot in Frazier #2 and that fight was only scheduled 4 12 , because of it not being a title fight .

4man's problems were emphatically detailed but thoroughly ignored .

4man fought 1 of d smartest fights that a man of his prowess could think of . It also took a small degree of courage , a degree that Ali still lacked .
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:44 AM   #27
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
I have zero respect for conservative politicians, and zero respect for liberal politicians. I do not think much more of Ali, because he was a loud mouth and an asshole for most of his life. He only gained dignity when he lost the ability to talk shit. He is overrated and to justify his exaltation, guys like Norton, Patterson, Shavers, Young, etc are called great. Great because they fought Ali who is great because he fought them.
I give Ali credit because, once his reflexes were gone and his lack of skill on display, he stood in and took his beatings. It stuns me to hear people talk about how his victory over Foreman proves how great Ali was...Actually, it proves how stupid, ringwise, Foreman was. Honestly, I don't know if Foreman was as good as Buddy Baer.
There is a cult of personality that has grown up around Ali, in this country, that astounds me.
d red part is true , but u use double standards because u do d same with Joe Louis and his deep shit opponents .

Joe Louis , like those b4 him drew d color line .
Louis , Johnson , "Jack Dempsey" , Tunney , Sullivan , Jeffries , Fitzsimmons all drew d color line .

and then u go and ignore d truth about d 4man fight .

and then u post shit by comparing 4man 2 Buddy Baer nonetheless .
something only d likes of burt bienstock , The Mongoose , janitor and possibly McGrain r capable of doing , a shameful shit poor post .

Last edited by frankenfrank; 07-28-2012 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
The very best magicians can pull off a trick right in front of you that you still don't understand, no matter how much time you put into it. They can show you that 2+2=5, and make you believe it. The facts don't matter, it's the illusion that sells.

That's the beauty with Ali and his image. His popularity is owed, in no small part, to white liberals who helped turn him into a symbol of rebellion and counter culture. Even today, people assume that he must be hated by conservatives and that progressive, reasonable people are fans. To be a white Frazier fan at the time meant you either had to be from Philly or were yourself a conservative racist, wanting your "Uncle Tom" to win.

But sitting there, right in front of anyone who puts 10 minutes into a Google search, are multiple sources both in writing and on video that has Ali saying the kind of thing that would have a Ku Klux Klansmen testifying "Amen!". His political opinions were purely that of a stereotypical conservative white racist - for segregation, against interracial relationships and integration, racially insulting black guys....all of it.

And yet, it's the people who question that that get called racist, or are assumed to be conservative white people. And today, he's still an icon among liberals. Much of what those conservatives are accused of thinking has already been said out loud by Ali himself.

Much like Helen Keller, the image and symbolism of Ali is powerful enough that the man's opinions and what he's actually said is inconsequential. The parts that don't fit that ideal image and agenda conveniently get deleted, ignored, or excused.

2+2=5. And if you question that, maybe you just don't like numbers.
Good post.

It's probably been convenient to the revisionist image of Ali as a symbol of liberal progess that Ali hasn't been able to talk for the last 20 years.
I imagine he would have shattered the illusion by saying some pretty shocking (and funny) things.

I think it is pretty likely that even this old mellowed man of peace would probably stand against the American "liberal" on just about every one of the "key issues".

While he could still talk a bit, he publicly supported Ronald Reagan and the first George Bush in 1984 and in 1988.
This puts him pretty much in the conservative camp, whatever way you slice it.

To be fair to Ali, he was never an intellectual .. or even intelligent. I doubt he ever had any sort of sophisticated political beliefs - and that's not a bad thing. He was a great fighter, a handsome man with a ton of charisma and the gift of the gab. He wasn't always a nice guy, but he had a natural charm. And he courted controversy.
He deserves to an icon for those reasons.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:19 AM   #29
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
The very best magicians can pull off a trick right in front of you that you still don't understand, no matter how much time you put into it. They can show you that 2+2=5, and make you believe it. The facts don't matter, it's the illusion that sells.

That's the beauty with Ali and his image. His popularity is owed, in no small part, to white liberals who helped turn him into a symbol of rebellion and counter culture. Even today, people assume that he must be hated by conservatives and that progressive, reasonable people are fans. To be a white Frazier fan at the time meant you either had to be from Philly or were yourself a conservative racist, wanting your "Uncle Tom" to win.

But sitting there, right in front of anyone who puts 10 minutes into a Google search, are multiple sources both in writing and on video that has Ali saying the kind of thing that would have a Ku Klux Klansmen testifying "Amen!". His political opinions were purely that of a stereotypical conservative white racist - for segregation, against interracial relationships and integration, racially insulting black guys....all of it.

And yet, it's the people who question that that get called racist, or are assumed to be conservative white people. And today, he's still an icon among liberals. Much of what those conservatives are accused of thinking has already been said out loud by Ali himself.

Much like Helen Keller, the image and symbolism of Ali is powerful enough that the man's opinions and what he's actually said is inconsequential. The parts that don't fit that ideal image and agenda conveniently get deleted, ignored, or excused.

2+2=5. And if you question that, maybe you just don't like numbers.
Outstanding post!


I would just note, however, that I think where people were most split regarding the conservative/liberal divide on Ali-Frazier, came down to the war efforts and Ali being labeled a "draft dodger".

Yes, this did help him to become, as you duly noted, a "symbol of rebellion", but I really do believe that the war issue itself was more of a primary motivator than, let's say, his views on segregation, or race, or whatnot.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

Yes the melodramatic old wrinkly pasty dick posters on here hate him because he wasn't a good little monkey on a leash.
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