For Americans - how much is the view on Ali political?

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

Outstanding post!


I would just note, however, that I think where people were most split regarding the conservative/liberal divide on Ali-Frazier, came down to the war efforts and Ali being labeled a "draft dodger".

Yes, this did help him to become, as you duly noted, a "symbol of rebellion", but I really do believe that the war issue itself was more of a primary motivator than, let's say, his views on segregation, or race, or whatnot.

I would have defended his stance on Vietnam too. I wouldn't have bought into the bullshit that Joe Frazier was an Uncle Tom though. That's where it gets silly.

It's strange how people get caught up in the partisan hate nonsense.
The FOTC should have been any fan's dream, whoever the winner.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by Legend X

Ironic if truth .... because it seems Ali has been more of a conservative than a "liberal"/leftist.

Ali publicly supported Republican candidates. He supported Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

Ali had more Democratic leanings in the seventies. Many people convert,though. Ronald Reagan and frank Sinatra were Democrats in their younger days.


I suppose Ali's 'conversion' is yet another factor some will seize on and ignore others doing the same thing.

[Rumsfeld]

Originally Posted by Legend X

I would have defended his stance on Vietnam too. I wouldn't have bought into the bullshit that Joe Frazier was an Uncle Tom though. That's where it gets silly.

It's strange how people get caught up in the partisan hate nonsense.
The FOTC should have been any fan's dream, whoever the winner.

Well, I personally think it STILL fits the bill of any fan's dream, even for fans who didn't actually live through it!

I mean the fight happened before I was born.

But with all of the documentary footage and all around attention that fight has received in popular culture, I find myself watching that and picking sides as I first witnessed these events on tapes, and even to this day to some extent!



If anything, I think the political atmosphere only amplified its status as a "fan's dream" because of the intense symbolic nature the entire event represented, both culturally and of course for the sweet science as a professional sporting attraction.

It's fantastic!

Two undefeated heavyweights, each with a strong argument as legitimate champion in itself makes a great story line. Throw in everything else, and that's what gave it its historical significance that allows it to live on where, generations later, fans are still picking favorites even though the outcome was recorded decades ago.

I'm not advocating the "hate" part, that you obviously used to as a qualifier. But at the same time, the conflict and controversy still added to the powerfully intense emotions and feelings that surrounded and defined the "dream fight" for fans, past, present and future, that allow us to sit behind our computers and debate this event and its various subplots all these years later.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by Bokaj

Do you consider yourself conservative then? And by that I don't mean racist, just conservative as in the general political viewpoint.

Yes, I would lean toward a conservative direction.

I'm a conservative, but with sanity.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

Outstanding post!


I would just note, however, that I think where people were most split regarding the conservative/liberal divide on Ali-Frazier, came down to the war efforts and Ali being labeled a "draft dodger".

Yes, this did help him to become, as you duly noted, a "symbol of rebellion", but I really do believe that the war issue itself was more of a primary motivator than, let's say, his views on segregation, or race, or whatnot.

I don't think so.
The "draft dodger" issue wasn't that big a deal at the time. I didn't resent him for it.

Ali didn't dodge the draft, he stood up and defied it, like a man.

Contrast that to the Bill Clinton types who lied and evaded it dishonestly.

Ali's PR problem wasn't a noble cause like opposition to the War or the Civil Rights struggle (which he had nothing to do with).

He was simply an arrogant asshole who was full of himself.

We've all known people like that. We don't like them and we try to stay away from them. I don't think it runs any deeper than that.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

This one always kills me, B. It's like being so used to talking about lung cancer that you start referring to brain cancer as "reverse cancer". It's all just cancer, brother.

Maybe your right B E, but it is the norm for one race to be called "racists"
today, tarring everybody of that race, whilst the accuser gets the pass...
And if someone like myself who is not guilty of such wrong bile is a member of that race, doesn't use the "appelation " reverse racism", it reinforces this lying baloney...It was said oh the Nazis that "if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth "...So BE ,we are on the same page...
Peace brother...

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Maybe your right B E, but it is the norm for one race to be called "racists"
today, tarring everybody of that race, whilst the accuser gets the pass...
And if someone like myself who is not guilty of such wrong bile is a member of that race, doesn't use the "appelation " reverse racism", it reinforces this lying baloney...It was said oh the Nazis that "if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth "...So BE ,we are on the same page...
Peace brother...

5 Stars for you Burt,,,,,,,,

On Cassius Clay being called a 'draft dodger'. I would not call him that,
because to be a 'draft dodger', he would have left the country or went
underground, which in itself would have taken 'balls' and some personal courage.

I know a few who did just that, by fleeing to Canada, Iceland and even Chile.
They were 'real draft dodgers', and were rightfully proud of that moniker.

An 'anti-war protester' once said, Muhammad Ali is giving 'real draft dodgers' a bad name,
because he's playing 'make-believe' or should I say 'fake-believe'.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

5 Stars for you Burt,,,,,,,,

On Cassius Clay being called a 'draft dodger'. I would not call him that,
because to be a 'draft dodger', he would have left the country or went
underground, which in itself would have taken 'balls' and some personal courage.

I know a few who did just that, by fleeing to Canada, Iceland and even Chile.
They were 'real draft dodgers', and were rightfully proud of that moniker.

An 'anti-war protester' once said, Muhammad Ali is giving 'real draft dodgers' a bad name,
because he's playing 'make-believe' or should I say 'fake-believe'.

SP,you are on TARGET...I hate to get into issues on politics on a BOXING forum...It get's us nowhere's, but bitterness and dissension, but for that POSTER who without rhyme or reason, attacks a racial and political group , is surely hitting below the belt...
Ali was NO HERO, but a PAWN of the Nation Of Islam, spouting hatred and seperation of races akin to the KKK...This B.S. about him refusing the draft
that I and MILLIONS of others had to serve,and being called a courageous
hero is bunk..
In the second WW2, there was an actor named Lew Ayres, who played in
the great anti-war picture,"All quite on the Western Front "...Rather than serve in WW2 he became a conscientious objector and refused to be drafted...He then VOLUNTEERED to be an ambulance driver in Europe in the thick of the fight, risking his life to save his comrades...He served bravely and was cited for heroism...Ali was no hero, but a puppet of a hate group...
By refusing to serve, SOMEONE ELSE had to take his place...
If we choose and pick our wars as a nation we have ANARCHY...In a Democracy if we don't agree with the nation's policy's , why at election time, throw the bums out by the ballot box...Otherwise pandemonium
takes over a nation...Cheers...

[Goyourownway]

I think if you had to compile a list of all time great human beings,Ali would have to be up there in the top one. Objectively speaking,of course.I simply can't find a single flaw within the man,ya know? The sport wasn't interesting or worth discussing prior or after his participation.


We,the people,shall continue to preserve the cult of Ali until the end of time.








Deal with it!

[Rock0052]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Rock, a great and lucid post on your part...I DETEST politics,and I DETEST
REVERSE RACISM, and for an Ali to be a hero today, whilst a decent human being Joe Frazier who was the target of such vile hateful remarks by an Ali
while being a member of a group much like the KKK, galls me no end...And for the poster who vomited this bile on ESB, from out of nowhere, and accused posters like myself who think differently than he does as bigots and sad assed clowns...But I know people of his ilk are always on the "attack", and must be confronted...
P.S. I saw Clay /Ali in the Olympics defeating the great Aussie LH Tony Madden by close decision at MSG, and I saw the FOTC in 1971 MSG.
He was a helluva boxer and had courage, but give me a Joe Louis, An Ezzard Charles, a Joe Frazier, an Alexis Arguello, an Archie Moore, etc
dignified guys who didn't demean their opponents trying to make a living in
the tough sport we love...Cheers R.

Thanks for the complement Burt, keep on posting

[Pachilles]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

SP,you are on TARGET...I hate to get into issues on politics on a BOXING forum...It get's us nowhere's, but bitterness and dissension, but for that POSTER who without rhyme or reason, attacks a racial and political group , is surely hitting below the belt...
Ali was NO HERO, but a PAWN of the Nation Of Islam, spouting hatred and seperation of races akin to the KKK...This B.S. about him refusing the draft
that I and MILLIONS of others had to serve,and being called a courageous
hero is bunk..
In the second WW2, there was an actor named Lew Ayres, who played in
the great anti-war picture,"All quite on the Western Front "...Rather than serve in WW2 he became a conscientious objector and refused to be drafted...He then VOLUNTEERED to be an ambulance driver in Europe in the thick of the fight, risking his life to save his comrades...He served bravely and was cited for heroism...Ali was no hero, but a puppet of a hate group...
By refusing to serve, SOMEONE ELSE had to take his place...
If we choose and pick our wars as a nation we have ANARCHY...In a Democracy if we don't agree with the nation's policy's , why at election time, throw the bums out by the ballot box...Otherwise pandemonium
takes over a nation...Cheers...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI[/ame]

[Senor Pepe']

Pachilles,,,,,,

The machine gunner in 'Full Metal Jacket' only had 157 'certified kills' and 50 Water Buffalo.

That's nothing.

My neighbor had 237 'confirmed kills' with his 50MM Machine Gun.

Plus an additional 62 'Wild Pigs'.

He liked to call his 'Machine Gun', the 'Village Buster'.

[FastHands(beeb)]

Originally Posted by Rock0052

The very best magicians can pull off a trick right in front of you that you still don't understand, no matter how much time you put into it. They can show you that 2+2=5, and make you believe it. The facts don't matter, it's the illusion that sells.

That's the beauty with Ali and his image. His popularity is owed, in no small part, to white liberals who helped turn him into a symbol of rebellion and counter culture. Even today, people assume that he must be hated by conservatives and that progressive, reasonable people are fans. To be a white Frazier fan at the time meant you either had to be from Philly or were yourself a conservative racist, wanting your "Uncle Tom" to win.

But sitting there, right in front of anyone who puts 10 minutes into a Google search, are multiple sources both in writing and on video that has Ali saying the kind of thing that would have a Ku Klux Klansmen testifying "Amen!". His political opinions were purely that of a stereotypical conservative white racist - for segregation, against interracial relationships and integration, racially insulting black guys....all of it.

And yet, it's the people who question that that get called racist, or are assumed to be conservative white people. And today, he's still an icon among liberals. Much of what those conservatives are accused of thinking has already been said out loud by Ali himself.

Much like Helen Keller, the image and symbolism of Ali is powerful enough that the man's opinions and what he's actually said is inconsequential. The parts that don't fit that ideal image and agenda conveniently get deleted, ignored, or excused.

2+2=5. And if you question that, maybe you just don't like numbers.

This is quite possibly the most lucid, insightful and in my opinion accurate post I have ever read on ESB. Superb.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by FastHands(beeb)

This is quite possibly the most lucid, insightful and in my opinion accurate post I have ever read on ESB. Superb.

I totall agree, bravo Rock...

[Senor Pepe']

Rock0052,,,

Great thoughts,,,,,

But, on the face of it, Cassius Clay was one of the biggest sell-outs of all, as he signed
with the Louisville Sponsoring Group, '11 influential and successful white men'.

When he needed help after the 1960 Olympics, his first move, was to make a bee-line
directly to wealthy white businessman.

This helped Cassius Clay to have a very nice life at a young age.

Then proclaimed to all, to not 'sell out'.

Do as I say, not as I do.

What do we call people like that ? 'A false presentation of belief'