Ron Lyle vs Cleveland Williams

[SuzieQ49]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

Are you kidding lol? He was knocked down twice against "Sylvester Jones" who I've never heard of and then knocked down twice and out against Bob Satterfield - a lightheavyweight. He was knocked out 5 more times after fighting Liston. He was chinny there is no denying it.

He was only 19 years old when he was knocked down by bob satterfield/jones. Way before he grew into his mature physical prime in the early 1960s.

Williams was washed up when he suffered those knockouts in the late 1960s-early 1970s...He had been shot in the back in 1964, declared clinically "dead". He was never the same afterward.


Take the Williams of 1958-1963..The 6 years of Prime Cleveland Williams, only one man ever stopped him.

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

He was only 19 years old when he was knocked down by bob satterfield/jones. Way before he grew into his mature physical prime in the early 1960s.

Williams was washed up when he suffered those knockouts in the late 1960s-early 1970s...He had been shot in the back in 1964, declared clinically "dead". He was never the same afterward.


Take the Williams of 1958-1963..The 6 years of Prime Cleveland Williams, only one man ever stopped him.

So he was knocked out in his youth? Knocked out in his older age? Knocked out in his prime? Yet you're telling me he didn't have a bad chin?

Even so, the chin arguement is irrelevant. Because he DOESN'T have the chin of George Foreman who Lyle knocked down and was close to stopping. He also doesn't have the strength of Foreman who had all kinds of trouble putting Ron Lyle away. This is a victory for Lyle imo

[SuzieQ49]

So he was knocked out in his youth? Knocked out in his older age? Knocked out in his prime? Yet you're telling me he didn't have a bad chin?

He was only KnocKed out in his prime by one of the best punchers of all time. He proved to be a durable guy in his prime.

[SuzieQ49]

Because he DOESN'T have the chin of George Foreman who Lyle knocked down and was close to stopping. He also doesn't have the strength of Foreman who had all kinds of trouble putting Ron Lyle away. This is a victory for Lyle imo

Lyle did not face a prime early 1970s George Foreman. Foreman entered that fight on a 2 year layoff, he was not right. Lyle had all kinds of trouble with speed, and williams had electrifying speed combined with frightening power, enough to take lyle out, and finish the job Shavers started.

Lyle losing to Quarry by a wide decision and young 2x shows you how limited he was. Williams was a much harder fighter to outbox, because of his speed. Lyle was stiff as a board.

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

He was only KnocKed out in his prime by one of the best punchers of all time. He proved to be a durable guy in his prime.

Durable? Against who? And I still don't see him beating Ron Lyle

[choklab]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

He was only 19 years old when he was knocked down by bob satterfield/jones. Way before he grew into his mature physical prime in the early 1960s.

Williams was washed up when he suffered those knockouts in the late 1960s-early 1970s...He had been shot in the back in 1964, declared clinically "dead". He was never the same afterward.


Take the Williams of 1958-1963..The 6 years of Prime Cleveland Williams, only one man ever stopped him.

If you take away being shot by a policeman, being too inexperienced or being too far away from Texas or too close to a live opponent Cleveland big cat Williams never got beat!

Who was any good who williams beat during this so called 58-63 prime?The way I see it big cat was knocked out by the only live fighter he met. Find me a live, curent rated fighter he beat?

Before LIston williams career was one big zero in world terms. A local hometown creation on a comeback with a padded record. On the rebound fom his first career williams was Previously beaten and exposed by the only name fighter he had met so far.

between the Liston and ali fights williams beat 18 fighters who could not win more than 2 of their last 4 fights, of those (6-4) mel turnbow knocked him down. Williams also beat george moore and ernie terrel who had better records but Moore was only 11 months into a comeback after a two year break from a 14 month career and terrel beat williams in the return.

Terrel rebounded after williams beat him but he was nothing before facing williams. If terrel was nothing before facing williams what the hell did young ernie bring to the party during the williams fight?

[Bummy Davis]

Both men are overrated as punchers, I am not saying they could not hit but not the monsters they are made out to be. Williams was 31-1 when he was Ko'd in 3 by Bob Satterfield but Bob Satterfield could do that kind of damage, other than that Williams was really known for his losses not his wins.

Lyle was dominated by Quarry but did get off the floor vs Shavers to win but was KO'd by Foreman after having George out on his feet and on the floor a couple of times (great fight)

I give Lyle the edge because he did have a win over Shavers and close to beating Foreman....Williams best win was Terrell who he lost to also.....Lyle UD or stop

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Lyle did not face a prime early 1970s George Foreman. Foreman entered that fight on a 2 year layoff, he was not right. Lyle had all kinds of trouble with speed, and williams had electrifying speed combined with frightening power, enough to take lyle out, and finish the job Shavers started.

Lyle losing to Quarry by a wide decision and young 2x shows you how limited he was. Williams was a much harder fighter to outbox, because of his speed. Lyle was stiff as a board.

Foreman was in his prime. I don't believe this bullshit that he wasn't in his prime after Ali, he was the same, maybe he was weaker mentally, but damn he didn't show it in the Lyle fight when he went to war.

And can you stop comparing Williams with Quarry and Young. They are nothing alike. It's like saying Holmes would beat Ali because Frazier beat him.

And how as Ron Lyle limited? Because he lost to two great heavyweight? He had Ali beat on all score-cards before a premature stoppage and had Foreman down twice in a slugfest. Not to mention he started boxing at what like 27? He was far from limited. Had he started earlier he would have been an even better fighter.

His fight with Foreman and Shavers proves he can take a punch and give a punch. Williams never proved he could take a punch and never survived a war - he always crumbled.

[TheGreatA]

Williams had a decent ability to take a punch but he relied on it a lot more than he should have.

He was fairly easy to hit with his stationary stance, relying on a high guard to pick off the punches (with the smaller gloves of the old days) and a tendency to over-reach with his punches which left him open to counters.

Against the likes of Terrell, relatively light punchers, he looked to have a sturdy chin (as did Ken Norton) but going up against hard hitters like Liston he was likely to hit the canvas if he didn't put them down first.

This fight against Lyle is such a chance encounter that the man who gets off his punches first could definitely win, and Williams is likely to be that man as Lyle preferred to lay back and see what his opponent had to offer, as did Liston in his first fight against Williams (which led to him being lit up during the first round and having his nose broken). Liston went onto state that he would never make the same mistake again.

Lyle is likely more durable and gritty but he survived Shavers's onslaught by a very small margin (and Williams unlike Shavers had the conditioning to pour it on for 12 rounds) and couldn't quite withstand the punishment Foreman laid upon him eventually. I would not necessarily count on toughness over speed but both men definitely have things going in their favour and against them here.

[Senor Pepe']

If we throw out the Sonny Liston fights,

Cleveland was right there from 1959 thru 1964 (up until the gunshot wound).

And by all accounts, Floyd Patterson wasn't going anywhere near the 'Big Cat'.

I wonder what Cleveland Williams would have done to Floyd anywhere from
1959 thru 1964.

But, as for Cleveland versus a 6' 2" 218 lb. Ron Lyle, well ???

[TheGreatA]

Footage of Cleveland Williams is hard to come by. Here are highlights of his rematch against Ernie Terrell:

[DM]xshktk_terrell-vs-williams_sport[/DM]

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Footage of Cleveland Williams is hard to come by. Here are highlights of his rematch against Ernie Terrell:

[dm]xshktk_terrell-vs-williams_sport[/dm]

Sonny Liston was the ref in the first fight. I would love to see some footage of their first fight

[SuzieQ49]

Wow, both fighters look very good in there. Two big men with serious skills, speed, conditioning. Terrell looks fantastic with his movement, and his jab, Williams looks like a beast at cutting off the ring.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Wow, both fighters look very good in there. Two big men with serious skills, speed, conditioning. Terrell looks fantastic with his movement, and his jab, Williams looks like a beast at cutting off the ring.

I enjoyed that fight. Just goes to show how much talent there was around in the lower end of the top ten. I think Terrell won but he had his hands full all the way with Williams. Ernie could time and land when he wanted because Williams was doing the same things over and over but Terrell had to keep his wits about him because as predictable as he was Williams was still fast. Both were short of being world beaters. One had everything but lacked power the other had power but lacked the imagination to utilise it at top level.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by choklab

I enjoyed that fight. Just goes to show how much talent there was around in the lower end of the top ten. I think Terrell won but he had his hands full all the way with Williams. Ernie could time and land when he wanted because Williams was doing the same things over and over but Terrell had to keep his wits about him because as predictable as he was Williams was still fast. Both were short of being world beaters. One had everything but lacked power the other had power but lacked the imagination to utilise it at top level.

Williams and Terrell were both rated in the top 5 around the time of this fight.

They were actually scheduled to have a third match for the WBA title until Williams as we know got shot in the gut. I think Williams was clearly never even close to being the same after the incident, not only against Ali, but he looked much worse on film against Todd Herring for example than in this fight only 3 years previous.

Terrell looked to be gassing in the 10th round against Williams, a 15 round rematch may actually have been in Williams's favour despite his reputation as an early round threat. Williams to his credit always had great conditioning.