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Old 07-28-2012, 09:41 PM   #1
TheSouthpaw
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Default Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank him

Where do True Fight fans rank Oscar to Jr welterweights and Welterweights out of the past 20 or 30 years to other great Welterweights?...And do you Agree That he lost all his biggest fights?

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Old 07-28-2012, 10:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

He did NOT lose all of his biggest fights. His legacy was badly wounded by some dubious verdicts; 1) the Trinidad fight, where he tooled Trinidad only to get robbed, and 2) The second Mosley fight, where he again clearly outboxed a juiced-up Mosley only to lose another bad decision.

In his prime years at his best weights, the only man to soundly beat him was Shane Mosley in 2000. From 130-154, from the early 90s until 2003, he fought the best that could be put in front of him and beat them.

Even without the Mosley II and Trinidad wins being official, he still destroyed many guys at lightweight, tore Chavez apart at 140, and scored close wins over Whitaker and Quartey, while also beating a juiced-up Vargas at 154.

True, he should not have got the verdict against Sturm, but he never belonged at middleweight anyway. Of his other losses, 1 of them happened at a weight class he had no business being in against an ATG in Hopkins, and the other two (Mayweather and Pacquiao) both happened nearly a decade after his prime.

From a H2H standpoint, he is virtually unbeatable at 140; he was a physical monster at that weight, and his boxing skills had progressed to a fine degree by there. I rate him slightly less highly at 135, as he was basically a stalking mini-Trinidad down there. I don't rate him at 130, as he was drained and very underdeveloped technically. At 147, I'd say he is the best Welterweight of the post Whitaker era. His skills were better at 147 than they were at 140, but he wasn't quite as physically dominant there as he was at 140. Finally, at 154, while he was by no means physically imposing at that weight, he was at his best in terms of both technical skills and versatility. That's enough to still make him a serious threat to many at 154, excluding 80s greats like Hearns, Leonard, McCallum, etc.

All in all, De La Hoya is a true All-Time Great whose past-prime/out of optimum weight/bad decision losses have unjustly clouded people's judgment when they try to analyze what he could do in his prime H2H. He was truly a special fighter in his prime, and he had the right mindset wanting to prove he was the best, and boxing is a poorer place without him.
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

I can't wait till turbotime
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Old 07-28-2012, 11:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

HawkFan: Great post!

He's big trouble and should be considered as a threat to anyone 140-147 not named Napoles, Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, or Duran.
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

Oscar is an ATG IMO.....not sure what to say about his H2H ability though, I canīt see him beating any of the other greats....
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:00 AM   #7
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Originally Posted by HawkFan16 View Post
He did NOT lose all of his biggest fights. His legacy was badly wounded by some dubious verdicts; 1) the Trinidad fight, where he tooled Trinidad only to get robbed, and 2) The second Mosley fight, where he again clearly outboxed a juiced-up Mosley only to lose another bad decision.

In his prime years at his best weights, the only man to soundly beat him was Shane Mosley in 2000. From 130-154, from the early 90s until 2003, he fought the best that could be put in front of him and beat them.

Even without the Mosley II and Trinidad wins being official, he still destroyed many guys at lightweight, tore Chavez apart at 140, and scored close wins over Whitaker and Quartey, while also beating a juiced-up Vargas at 154.

True, he should not have got the verdict against Sturm, but he never belonged at middleweight anyway. Of his other losses, 1 of them happened at a weight class he had no business being in against an ATG in Hopkins, and the other two (Mayweather and Pacquiao) both happened nearly a decade after his prime.

From a H2H standpoint, he is virtually unbeatable at 140; he was a physical monster at that weight, and his boxing skills had progressed to a fine degree by there. I rate him slightly less highly at 135, as he was basically a stalking mini-Trinidad down there. I don't rate him at 130, as he was drained and very underdeveloped technically. At 147, I'd say he is the best Welterweight of the post Whitaker era. His skills were better at 147 than they were at 140, but he wasn't quite as physically dominant there as he was at 140. Finally, at 154, while he was by no means physically imposing at that weight, he was at his best in terms of both technical skills and versatility. That's enough to still make him a serious threat to many at 154, excluding 80s greats like Hearns, Leonard, McCallum, etc.

All in all, De La Hoya is a true All-Time Great whose past-prime/out of optimum weight/bad decision losses have unjustly clouded people's judgment when they try to analyze what he could do in his prime H2H. He was truly a special fighter in his prime, and he had the right mindset wanting to prove he was the best, and boxing is a poorer place without him.
This.

-Let's not forget that Mosley was on the EPO for who knows how long? And yes the Sturm bout was very controversial, but Oscar pretty much admitted he lost in the post-fight interview, so you have to give him props for that, because he did lose.

-Oscar's right of passage wins over Chavez, win over P4P king and ATG Whitaker, beating other top contenders through the weights, then his clowning of prime contemporary Tito Trinidad solidified Oscar's ATG'ness without question. His wars against juiced fighters Mosley, Vargas were icing on the cake.

Oscar always wanted to fight the best, challenging Hopkins when he had no business doing so is no truer testament to Oscar's championship spirit.

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Old 07-29-2012, 12:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Oscar is an ATG IMO.....not sure what to say about his H2H ability though, I canīt see him beating any of the other greats....
The hell? He beat around 4 of them.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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The hell? He beat around 4 of them.
Oh, by Greats I mean SRR, Hearns, SRL, Gavilan, Napoles, etc, all in their prime....
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:56 AM   #10
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL View Post
Oh, by Greats I mean SRR, Hearns, SRL, Gavilan, Napoles, etc, all in their prime....
Why couldn't he beat Gavilan or Hearns? He hits Hearns with the hook and Hearns turns to spaghetti IMO

Comparing Oscar/Floyd to fighters who were natural 147 lb fighters is even pretty unfair, I love their chances against the best at 135-140 region where they were physically peaked.
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Old 07-29-2012, 12:58 AM   #11
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

Just look how happy Oscar is to want to fight his unbeaten contemporary Trinidad. Now a days you have camps pricing themselves out whatever whatever.

Call Trinidad 1 dimensional all you like but a lot of people were picking Tito by KO. Even HBO called him the better boxer between the 2

7:59 Merchant is basically saying WTF are you thinking
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaKxnoJaE0[/ame]
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

De La Hoya was a great fighter. Not an elite great. He lost his biggest fights....Trinidad, Mosley, Hopkins, Mayweather. Yes, he won some big ones too. Chavez Whitaker, Quartey, Vargas. However, Chavez, Whitaker and Vargas were past their primes. The first four I mentioned were all in or around their primes.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL View Post
Oscar is an ATG IMO.....not sure what to say about his H2H ability though, I canīt see him beating any of the other greats....

I completely agree with you..Thankyou
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

Not to mention one of the greatest hooks ever

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Old 07-29-2012, 02:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank

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Originally Posted by HawkFan16 View Post
He did NOT lose all of his biggest fights. His legacy was badly wounded by some dubious verdicts; 1) the Trinidad fight, where he tooled Trinidad only to get robbed, and 2) The second Mosley fight, where he again clearly outboxed a juiced-up Mosley only to lose another bad decision.

In his prime years at his best weights, the only man to soundly beat him was Shane Mosley in 2000. From 130-154, from the early 90s until 2003, he fought the best that could be put in front of him and beat them.

Even without the Mosley II and Trinidad wins being official, he still destroyed many guys at lightweight, tore Chavez apart at 140, and scored close wins over Whitaker and Quartey, while also beating a juiced-up Vargas at 154.

True, he should not have got the verdict against Sturm, but he never belonged at middleweight anyway. Of his other losses, 1 of them happened at a weight class he had no business being in against an ATG in Hopkins, and the other two (Mayweather and Pacquiao) both happened nearly a decade after his prime.

From a H2H standpoint, he is virtually unbeatable at 140; he was a physical monster at that weight, and his boxing skills had progressed to a fine degree by there. I rate him slightly less highly at 135, as he was basically a stalking mini-Trinidad down there. I don't rate him at 130, as he was drained and very underdeveloped technically. At 147, I'd say he is the best Welterweight of the post Whitaker era. His skills were better at 147 than they were at 140, but he wasn't quite as physically dominant there as he was at 140. Finally, at 154, while he was by no means physically imposing at that weight, he was at his best in terms of both technical skills and versatility. That's enough to still make him a serious threat to many at 154, excluding 80s greats like Hearns, Leonard, McCallum, etc.

All in all, De La Hoya is a true All-Time Great whose past-prime/out of optimum weight/bad decision losses have unjustly clouded people's judgment when they try to analyze what he could do in his prime H2H. He was truly a special fighter in his prime, and he had the right mindset wanting to prove he was the best, and boxing is a poorer place without him.
I agree with you that ODLH was an alltime great fighter, one of the greatest at both welterweight levels.

What I think you're forgetting is that Oscar's popularity, like Ali's popularity helped him along the same way in getting the judges to vote in his favour. Crowd noise definitely contributes to the exaggeration of punches landed. Oscar was a big time recipient of crowd noise decision wins.

He didn't deserve the win against Quartey, regardless of what happened in the last round. Ike continually threw his jab and right hand the entire fight, meanwhile Oscar resorted to attempts at stealing the rounds with flurries at the start and finish, especially after exchanging KDs in the 6th.

Whitaker out-boxed him better than Mayweather did. Again the Las Vegas crowd was all for Oscar which I believed helped him in the scoring. Sweet Pea out-landed Oscar and out-jabbed him too. He knocked Oscar to a knee and made him miss the whole night. Oscar once more resorted to throwing combinations in flurries to save rounds, that made more noise in the audience rather than inside the ring.

I don't think the second fight with Shane was a robbery. The judges were awake and paid less attention to the DeLaHoya cheering section. Shane blocked a lot of Oscar's punches on the gloves and beat him to the punch on the inside. Same thing against Mayweather. The cheers for every punch Oscar threw and didn't land were rightfully not counted in the scoring.

The Sturm decision was a disgrace for boxing. No matter how badly Oscar was out-classed, the Hopkins fight was already set and the only way Sturm was going to win was to stop Oscar. Felix would never win a decision that night.

Oscar beats Chavez twice for Latin pride, but couldn't give rematches to Quartey or Whitaker, especially considering the controversy in the scoring of those two. That's where he's far apart from Ali in terms of overall greatness.
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