Now that De La Hoya has been out of boxing for a while...Where do Oscar fans rank him

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by round15

Watch closely at the Delahoya fights and his punches. In boxing it's called shoeshining. Bogus flurries and the crowd cheers at nothingness.

Oscar got away with that plenty. It only caught up with him and didn't work against Mayweather and Mosley.

No I'm not an Oscar hater. I think he was robbed against Trinidad and the Mosley fights were close. He's a great fighter like I said. Easily one of the best in his era.

Remember what he said after the Quartey fight though? Bigger and better fights for him, so no rematch? How come he couldn't "right" the controversial ship with a Quartey rematch like he did to Chavez? Whitaker wanted the rematch but Oscar already had his agenda in order and chose not to risk it all and get out-pointed again by an aging Sweet Pea.

Why rematch Quartey when he beat him all over the ring? He was unifying with Trinidad anyways so it wasn't like he was fighting a scrub instead. Quartey left the division shortly after, Oscar didn't need to chase a guy he almost KO'd.

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by round15

Really?

Really!

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by turbotime

Why rematch Quartey when he beat him all over the ring? He was unifying with Trinidad anyways so it wasn't like he was fighting a scrub instead. Quartey left the division shortly after, Oscar didn't need to chase a guy he almost KO'd.

I take you only watched the last round, Oscar was outboxed for most of the rounds

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I take you only watched the last round, Oscar was outboxed for most of the rounds

Most of the middle rounds but the last and the early rounds were all the Big O's.

[PowerPuncher]

This thread highlights the problem with assessing Oscar, his hater's say 'he lost all his big fights' scoring all the controversial fights against him and his fans say he won all his close controversial fights doing the opposite. There's little room for objectivity with such a polarising figure

Originally Posted by turbotime

Most of the middle rounds but the last and the early rounds were all the Big O's.

If you count shoe shinning Quartey's gloves while getting your head busted by clean heavy jabs and rights as clear rounds, then ok

For the record 1 of the judges who had Oscar beating Quartey also had Trinidad beating Oscar

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

If you count shoe shinning Quartey's gloves while getting your head busted by clean heavy jabs and rights as clear rounds, then ok

Ike was the one getting battered all over the place. Beat him so bad he left the division and dyed his hair blonde

[HawkFan16]

Originally Posted by round15

Watch closely at the Delahoya fights and his punches. In boxing it's called shoeshining. Bogus flurries and the crowd cheers at nothingness.

Oscar got away with that plenty. It only caught up with him and didn't work against Mayweather and Mosley.

No I'm not an Oscar hater. I think he was robbed against Trinidad and the Mosley fights were close. He's a great fighter like I said. Easily one of the best in his era.

Remember what he said after the Quartey fight though? Bigger and better fights for him, so no rematch? How come he couldn't "right" the controversial ship with a Quartey rematch like he did to Chavez? Whitaker wanted the rematch but Oscar already had his agenda in order and chose not to risk it all and get out-pointed again by an aging Sweet Pea.

Mayweather I'll give you. But guess what? That was DLH almost a decade after his prime. He'd have fought much differently against Floyd if he was still in his prime. That uber faded Oscar was fighting flat-footed and attacking Floyd in straight lines with sloppy flurries. He had none of the handspeed, footspeed, lateral movement, timing, or explosiveness that characterized him in his prime. Hell, in the Mayorga fight, he was stalking Mayorga flat-footed, doing basically the same thing he would try on Mayweather one year later. Only Oscar's power and Mayorgas nonexistent D allowed DLH to rip him apart.

As for Mosley II, I really don't know what to tell you. If Oscar was shoe-shining him for that fight, you'd think the granite-chinned Mosley would just walk through that pitter-patter horseshit. But guess what? He didn't. Guess he wasn't shoe-shining if he was snapping Mosley's head back and giving him that discouraged "Shit, I'm in with a tall boxer with skills, what the fuck do I do now?" face he had against Forrest and Wright. Oscar was catching him solidly with the jab and the lead right over and over, and there wasn't a damn thing Mosley could do about it until after the 7th round, when DLH started to slow a little while Mosley was still fresh (ROIDS. By the way, how come Mosley gets credit for "winning" this fight even though he really didn't and he was juiced for it?) Then he was able to walk through it a little better, and Oscar began to fight in more stationary, counterpunching spurts off the ropes. And Oscar still gutted out one or two of those last 5 rounds. DLH plainly dominated those first 7 rounds. There's no way around it.

Oscar in his prime hit like a truck from 135 to 147, and still hit very hard at 154. However, he used his boxing skills against Mosley, because he'd already tried to brawl with Mosley once and it didn't work. Mosley is at his best in a brawl. And he had Mosley looking totally lost in the second fight. It was a clear Oscar win. Mosley took a close, hard-fought win in the first fight. Oscar beat him more clearly in the rematch than Mosley beat him the first time.

If Oscar was a pitter patter shoe shine flurrier, he probably wouldn't have knocked out so many guys, rearranged Trinidad's face, etc.

[HawkFan16]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Oscar fan from Socal has Oscar winning his close fights shocker

I guess you'd probably assume I'm Mexican too. But I'm not. I'm a fan of his, sure, but I acknowledge he lost to Sturm. I know when he loses. I'm not some biased fanboy; I don't favor him over most of the 80s greats, but he is the best guy to come after that old guard from the 80s.

[Robbi]

Originally Posted by turbotime

and Oscar was going to fight the winner of Pea/Quartey in 98, but that fight fell through and Pea went into rehab, Oscar took a Chavez fight and Quartey waited on the winner of that and fought Oscar.

The only fight that fell through for Oscar in 1998 was Terry Norris. That fight was signed and sealed, only for Norris to lose against Mullings on the De La Hoya-River undercard in Dec, 1997. Talk may well have been surfacing that De La Hoya might fight the winner of Whitaker-Quartey but that was nowhere near as concrete as the De La Hoya-Norris fight.

[Robbi]

The De La Hoya-Quartey fight was close. No question about it. To say that De La Hoya sweeped the first 4 rounds is quite simply hideous. I honestly thought the first 4 rounds were pretty hard to score. I'm sure I had De La Hoya 3-2 up after 5 rounds.

One fight where De La Hoya only had himself to blame was the first Mosley fight. He and Alcazar thought that Mosley was too small and De La Hoya's power would take care of him. I'll always mind when Manny Steward was at the weigh-in and Alcazar told him, "Manny, this guy is a lightweight" Only for Steward to reply, "he's no lightweight, he's just weighed-in at 147lbs". De La Hoya's whole style, strategy and approach was looking for the knockout. He walked in, "straight up and down" lacked a plan B and generally forgot about his boxing skills and defense. De La Hoya's pressuring behind the jab and right hand actually served him well over the first 6 rounds. I'm sure I had him up, 4 rounds to 2. Then he just fell away and Mosley smoked him during the exchanges over the 2nd half of the fight. Mosley adjusted gears, De La Hoya never.

[round15]

Originally Posted by HawkFan16

I watch every fight without volume sir, noise has literally zero effect on how I score a fight.

I scored the Whitaker fight 114-112 Oscar. Oscar was the effective aggressor, and Whitaker mostly tried to spoil and survive. Most of his punches had no snap on them at all, and most were getting parried by De La Hoya. They were honestly Tim Bradley-style slapping arm punches. De La Hoya meanwhile closed Whitaker's eye, had him in retreat mode the entire fight, and landed many more solid blows. It was close, but De La Hoya won.

As for Quartey, Quartey simply started too slowly. He lost each of the first 4 rounds. De La Hoya started quickly and outlanded him and struck with more authority in all of the opening rounds. Quartey outboxed a gunshy Oscar from rounds 5 through 9, but then Oscar almost decapitated Quartey and retook the initiative to take round 10. Quartey regrouped and won round 11 on my card, but De La Hoya got a 10-8 round to win 114-113. Some people also give Oscar round 11. The only clear Quartey rounds were 5-9. 1-4, 10, and 12 are all pretty clear Oscar rounds. He earned the win fair and square.

Trinidad was as clear a win as you'll find. Out of the first 10 rounds, Trinidad won round 4. Maybe. It was an easy 9-3 or 8-4 Oscar win, depending on how nice you want to be to Trinidad. He could barely even touch Oscar in the first 10 rounds. Even in 11 and 12, he only won those because Oscar wasn't doing anything, as opposed to Trinidad getting quality work done. He wasn't. Oscar straight up tooled him. Even Trinidad's father was telling him he needed a knockout to win going into the 12th.

Mosley II was a robbery, and you're an Oscar hater if you disagree. Oscar swept each of the first seven rounds in Trinidad-esque fashion. Mosley was totally befuddled by Oscar's movement, jab, lead right, and improved counterpunching off the ropes. He was getting tooled. However, luckily for him, he was on roids for that fight and didn't get tired/discouraged like he has in other fights he was losing where he was clean. Mosley won rounds 8-10 on my card, but Oscar stole the 11th. I also gave the 12th to Mosley. However, many people score rounds 10 and 12 for Oscar too. Those last 5 rounds were quite close, as Oscar was still countering Mosley's aggression very effectively. If Mosley was beating up Oscar with "harder shots" the whole fight, then why wasn't he able to finish off a more tired Oscar while he was still EPO fresh late? Simple- 1) he wasn't landing as much as Oscar haters would have you believe, and 2) De La Hoya was still countering him well enough to make him hesitate. 8-4 for Oscar is the fairest score for that fight, and the one I see most people scoring the fight as.

Oscar also offered Whitaker a rematch, but Whitaker decided he'd rather snort coke instead. As for Quartey, he had managerial problems that had caused the long layoffs both before and after the Oscar fight. It's why Quartey didn't get a unification fight with Oscar before 1999, and why his next appearance was at 154 against Vargas more than a year later. Neither of those are Oscar's fault. He ducked no one. He also offered Winky Wright a fight twice; both in 2003 before he fought Mosley the second time, and later on in 2005, but Wright declined both offers. Because he's an idiot. Not Oscar's fault at all.

The crowds didn't make Oscar a great fighter as you imply; he was a great fighter who also happened to be a fan favorite because of his style, his ability, his public image, and his mindset to prove he was the best. He fought everyone, and has just one legitimate loss in his prime: Mosley in 2000. Hate him if you want for being a greasy promoter or a druggie, but as a fighter in his prime, he was awesome. Just accept it.

Quartey hurt Delahoya more than the did before they traded knockdowns in the 6th. I had Ike winning rounds 2 and 4. Oscar rounds 1 and 3. Oscars legs were buckled in the 3rd but I had him barely winning the round. 5-9 were Quartey rounds, 10 ODLH 11 Quartey and 12 ODLH.
There were many moments in the fight where Ike jabbed and landed his right hand with it. Oscar resorted to flurrying at the start and end of the rounds to save them which wasn't enough on my scorecard.

[round15]

Originally Posted by turbotime

Why rematch Quartey when he beat him all over the ring? He was unifying with Trinidad anyways so it wasn't like he was fighting a scrub instead. Quartey left the division shortly after, Oscar didn't need to chase a guy he almost KO'd.

Yeah, Ike beat Oscar from ringpost to ringpost with the exception of the last round. ODLH even chickened out of the rematch in the commentary right after. It's all there.

[HawkFan16]

Originally Posted by round15

Quartey hurt Delahoya more than the did before they traded knockdowns in the 6th. I had Ike winning rounds 2 and 4. Oscar rounds 1 and 3. Oscars legs were buckled in the 3rd but I had him barely winning the round. 5-9 were Quartey rounds, 10 ODLH 11 Quartey and 12 ODLH.
There were many moments in the fight where Ike jabbed and landed his right hand with it. Oscar resorted to flurrying at the start and end of the rounds to save them which wasn't enough on my scorecard.

Ironically, round 3 is the only round of the first 4 Quartey has an argument for winning. Surprising you didn't give it to him. Quartey was just too slow out the gate. He got going in the 5th and clearly outboxed Oscar from there until round 9, and hurt Oscar more than the reverse in round 6. Rounds 7-9 were won by Quartey mainly because Oscar wasn't doing anything in those rounds. Quartey just wasn't landing with the same frequency or effectiveness as Oscar early. He spent most of the early rounds trying to figure out Oscar, and he did do it enough to win rounds 5-9, but Oscar sucked it up and came on strong to win. Some people give him 10-12. I personally gave Quartey the 11th, but can see the argument for Oscar in that round as well. He also got the better of the action early. Simply put, Oscar won the beginning and end, and Quartey won the middle, and the differences in scoring come down to how generous you want to be to Quartey early. Either way, I acknowledge it was a close fight, but Oscar edged it. Some guys who score it 8-4 or 9-3 Quartey are getting ridiculous. If you want to score it 7-5 Quartey, that's understandable. 114-113 Quartey or 114-113 Oscar are probably the two most common and fairest scores among fans. Quartey didn't get robbed. A SD either way is fair.

[Robbi]

One thing about De La Hoya-Quartey......During rounds 7-9, if Quartey had stepped up the gas a little bit more he'd probably have stopped De La Hoya. He just needed to follow in more often behind the jab.

I was really annoyed with De La Hoya during the 6th round. He went after Quartey after he floored him and that was the wrong thing to do, as he paid he price by getting knocked down himself. When he knocked Quartey down he should have looked at Quartey's condition before going in for the kill and jumping all over him. He got far too excited after scoring the knockdown. Very careless thinking indeed. One the otherhand, De La Hoya was hurt when Quartey knocked him down.

[lora]

Oscar's fights with Quartey and Mosley(and aging Pea to an extent as well) make me think he falls just short of beating the top two tiers or so of Welter boxer-punchers.

At his best h2h at 140.An excellent fighter on his day, but not an all-timer.