Why is Ingo Johansson in the Hall of Fame?

[choklab]

Originally Posted by turbotime

He only had 26 fights and was nearly crippled by Patterson in returns. Someone please school me on why he is a HOF'er?

11 of those 26 fights were against rated contenders when there was one top ten and one champion. Thats a very good ratio compared to 80% of champions. apart from geroge Foreman and max Baer I cannot think of too many HW champs who knocked out the current two best heavyweights in the world so emphaticaly.You couldnt get two better heavyweights to knock out than unbeaten machen and champ floyd when ingo turned the trick. foreman knocking out Frazier and Norton and baer taking out schmeling and carnera was as impresive IMO.

ingo made serious progress from the start of his career at a competative level.ingo was facing a 27 year old giant who outweigand him by almost 30lb and had a 30-7 record when he was only 5-0, he won by KO. Kurt schidgl was rated #4 in europe when ingo took him on in only his 8th fight. ingo won by KO again. At 12-0 Ingo fought a former european champion who had 43 fights in front of 17,000 fans,ingo won in one round. Nat fleicher whatched Ingo knock out another german giant guenter Nurnburg and predicted that he could be a world champion. after just 14 fights ingo took on the world rated european champion who was 43-3 and won by Ko again. All this before fighting and knocking out #1 eddie machen in one round who went 10 rounds with Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier...

ten hoff rated 1950-1951
erskine 32-1 rated 1958-59 beat chuvalo
franco cavicchi 43-3 rated 1955-56
henry cooper rated from 1958-1971 beat metiff, folley and harris
heinz neuhaus 1952-56 (off and on) beat maxim and rex layne
eddie machen#1
patterson #1
dick richardson rated 1960 beat ezzard charles, bob baker, mildenburger,

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by choklab

11 of those 26 fights were against rated contenders when there was one top ten and one champion. Thats a very good ratio compared to 80% of champions. apart from geroge Foreman and max Baer I cannot think of too many HW champs who knocked out the current two best heavyweights in the world so emphaticaly.You couldnt get two better heavyweights to knock out than unbeaten machen and champ floyd when ingo turned the trick. foreman knocking out Frazier and Norton and baer taking out schmeling and carnera was as impresive IMO.

ingo made serious progress from the start of his career at a competative level.ingo was facing a 27 year old giant who outweigand him by almost 30lb and had a 30-7 record when he was only 5-0, he won by KO. Kurt schidgl was rated #4 in europe when ingo took him on in only his 8th fight. ingo won by KO again. At 12-0 Ingo fought a former european champion who had 43 fights in front of 17,000 fans,ingo won in one round. Nat fleicher whatched Ingo knock out another german giant guenter Nurnburg and predicted that he could be a world champion. after just 14 fights ingo took on the world rated european champion who was 43-3 and won by Ko again. All this before fighting and knocking out #1 eddie machen in one round who went 10 rounds with Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier...

ten hoff rated 1950-1951
erskine 32-1 rated 1958-59 beat chuvalo
franco cavicchi 43-3 rated 1955-56
henry cooper rated from 1958-1971 beat metiff, folley and harris
heinz neuhaus 1952-56 (off and on) beat maxim and rex layne
eddie machen#1
patterson #1
dick richardson rated 1960 beat ezzard charles, bob baker, mildenburger,

Nice. Where do you get your rankings from?

[turbotime]

Wow how is Buster Douglas not in the Hall but Ingo is...that is just strange to me.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by turbotime

Nice. Where do you get your rankings from?

Old ring and boxing illustrated magazines belonging to my father.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by turbotime

Wow how is Buster Douglas not in the Hall but Ingo is...that is just strange to me.

I think douglas should be too.

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by choklab

Old ring and boxing illustrated magazines belonging to my father.

Lucky. I only have from 97 RING mags to 2008, KO mags as well.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by choklab

11 of those 26 fights were against rated contenders when there was one top ten and one champion. Thats a very good ratio compared to 80% of champions. apart from geroge Foreman and max Baer I cannot think of too many HW champs who knocked out the current two best heavyweights in the world so emphaticaly.You couldnt get two better heavyweights to knock out than unbeaten machen and champ floyd when ingo turned the trick. foreman knocking out Frazier and Norton and baer taking out schmeling and carnera was as impresive IMO.

ingo made serious progress from the start of his career at a competative level.ingo was facing a 27 year old giant who outweigand him by almost 30lb and had a 30-7 record when he was only 5-0, he won by KO. Kurt schidgl was rated #4 in europe when ingo took him on in only his 8th fight. ingo won by KO again. At 12-0 Ingo fought a former european champion who had 43 fights in front of 17,000 fans,ingo won in one round. Nat fleicher whatched Ingo knock out another german giant guenter Nurnburg and predicted that he could be a world champion. after just 14 fights ingo took on the world rated european champion who was 43-3 and won by Ko again. All this before fighting and knocking out #1 eddie machen in one round who went 10 rounds with Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier...

ten hoff rated 1950-1951
erskine 32-1 rated 1958-59 beat chuvalo
franco cavicchi 43-3 rated 1955-56
henry cooper rated from 1958-1971 beat metiff, folley and harris
heinz neuhaus 1952-56 (off and on) beat maxim and rex layne
eddie machen#1
patterson #1
dick richardson rated 1960 beat ezzard charles, bob baker, mildenburger,

You always forget to take into account the time lapse.
I don't think Ten Hoff had been rated for 4 years when he fought Ingo in 55,and I'm not sure the Ring ever rated him in the top ten.
Cavicchii is not in any Ring rating I can find.
Cooper was rated in 58 and 59, he fought Ingo in 57.
Neuhaus rated in 52 and 54, fought Ingo in 58.
Richardson was no 9 in 60, fought Ingo in 62.
London got to no 10 at the end of 63 ,on the strength of newrly koing Ingo that year.

Johannson missed out far more deserving fighters than he ever faced, his resume is very thin in fact. The vast majority of Ingo's victims were Euro level at best.
Williams
Baker
Folley
Jones
Daniels
Pastrano
Moore
Cleroux
McMurtry
DeJohn
Satterfield
Miteff
Carter
Lavorante
Bethea
Liston
Harris
Valdes
Hunter :Are just some of the rated fighters Ingo did NOT face.

I'm not saying he should not be in the HOF, that is meaningless to me anyway,just let's not pretend he had a deep resume , because he did not.

[Senor Pepe']

Ingo did see something in Sonny Liston, that many others did not.

Though they were within a whisker of fighting, and did criticize each other
from 1960 thru 1963, Ingo helped Sonny get back to boxing in 1966 and 1967,
by promoting several of his fights in Scandanavia.

Ingo, had a successful commercial fishing business in the 1960's, and during that time
he was a sharp businessman.

Ingo was a 'Country Club Playboy', as he rode horses, played tennis, owned and drove a road race car,
owned a 'hip night-club' called "Ingo's" where all the rich Scandanavian hipsters hung out, owned
a race boat as well as several commercial fishing vessels.

The man was 'the first' real heavyweight 'Playboy'.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by turbotime

Wow how is Buster Douglas not in the Hall but Ingo is...that is just strange to me.

I'm not arguing one way or the other but there is definetly a difference.

Douglas was a lower tier contender best known for his embarressing defeat against belt holder Tony Tucker. His now touted win over than 14-2 McCall didn't mean much at the time. He hung around the bottom top 10 of a cleaned out division for a year or two, but he became a real life "Rocky" when he upset Tyson. But Douglas proved to be a splash in the pan, getting blown out by Evander in a disgraceful performance and falling from relevance. Douglas is more comparable to Rahman, though Rahman actually had a better overall career.

Ingo climbed the rankings by beating the best European fighters, he than KOed the #1 contender Machen in a shocking upset to claim the top spot. In the resulting title shot, KOed Patterson to claim the undisputed title. Though Patterson got the best, they had a memorable classic trilogy, and all the matches were relatively competitive. But Ingo got the worse of it, retiring early after a poor winning performance against future top 10 regular Brian London.


I think Carnera has a case before Douglas too, in terms of overall achievement.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

The man was 'the first' real heavyweight 'Playboy'.

No, He wasnt. Jack Johnson owned a hip restaraunt/nightclub/whorehouse, WHILE he was champion.

Sullivan owned a popular bar, and partied his ass off all over the country.

Even Jim Corbett was known to be a bit of a wild man.

Jack Dempsey owned a string of hotels as champ, starred in more movies than he had title fights, and partied with the stars.

Ingo doesnt even come close to a lot of former hw champions as being the first playboy champion.

[Senor Pepe']

Jack Johnson was a 'modified pimp' who owned a 'Speak Easy'.

John L. Sullivan was 'no playboy'. He was a 'dirty stay-out'.

Gentleman Jim, more of a 'swash-buckler'.

Jack Dempsey was more of a 'man about town'.

Ingo, was 'The Country Club Playboy'

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

I'm not arguing one way or the other but there is definetly a difference.

Douglas was a lower tier contender best known for his embarressing defeat against belt holder Tony Tucker. His now touted win over than 14-2 McCall didn't mean much at the time. He hung around the bottom top 10 of a cleaned out division for a year or two, but he became a real life "Rocky" when he upset Tyson. But Douglas proved to be a splash in the pan, getting blown out by Evander in a disgraceful performance and falling from relevance. Douglas is more comparable to Rahman, though Rahman actually had a better overall career.

Ingo climbed the rankings by beating the best European fighters, he than KOed the #1 contender Machen in a shocking upset to claim the top spot. In the resulting title shot, KOed Patterson to claim the undisputed title. Though Patterson got the best, they had a memorable classic trilogy, and all the matches were relatively competitive. But Ingo got the worse of it, retiring early after a poor winning performance against future top 10 regular Brian London.


I think Carnera has a case before Douglas too, in terms of overall achievement.

Good stuff. I agree on the Carnera, I'm pretty surprised he isn't in either.

[choklab]

[quote=mcvey;13482714]You always forget to take into account the time lapse.
Cavicchii is not in any Ring rating I can find.[quote]

I have in my hands now the jan 1956 issue of The Ring and franco cavicchi is rated #10. Im not pushing an agenda im just telling you what is printed in the book. Jan ratings were set on Month ending Nov 17th 1955. The new Euro champ would take Franco’s place..
　

Originally Posted by mcvey

Cooper was rated in 58 and 59, he fought Ingo in 57.

Cooper also went as high as #1 the official world ratings aug 15th 1961 after liston was suspended in pennsylvania. Henry was also rated in 1971.

Originally Posted by mcvey

Neuhaus rated in 52 and 54, fought Ingo in 58.

Also #10 in may 1956 issue. In the last 18 month or so before taking on ingo Heinz beat joey maxim, rex layne, brian London and drew with cooper. He was no mug and still winning.

Originally Posted by mcvey

Richardson was no 9 in 60, fought Ingo in 62.

Richardson was a euro champion when Ingo beat him. The European circuit was taken seriously. Real 15 round fights in soccer stadiums between national champions, many with intenational amatuer and pro pedigree. All European champions would get a token rating every other month or so in the ring top ten depending on how recently to publication they had fought. My collection of magazines misses out much of 1962 but I have no doubt the tradition of including euro champs on the months that they were active would have continued as they did the rest of the time.

Originally Posted by mcvey

London got to no 10 at the end of 63 ,on the strength of newrly koing Ingo that year.

London was rated as early as 1958 for beating pastrano. In fact Cooper beat folley, ingo beat machen and London beat pastrano around the same time. Euro heavyweights were good then.
　
　

Originally Posted by mcvey

Johannson missed out far more deserving fighters than he ever faced, his resume is very thin in fact. The vast majority of Ingo's victims were Euro level at best.
Williams
Baker
Folley
Jones
Daniels
Pastrano
Moore
Cleroux
McMurtry
DeJohn
Satterfield
Miteff
Carter
Lavorante
Bethea
Liston
Harris
Valdes
Hunter :Are just some of the rated fighters Ingo did NOT face.

Ingo made it legitimately into the top ten for Knocking out cavicchi a rated contender in 1956. He was as high as #7 that year but by 1957 he had dipped as low as #10 because his two wins since winning the euro title did not match the wins of newer contenders pastrano, folley and harris. Machen was #1 in year ending 1957. At #8 Ingo beat Erskine and machen in 1958 the #10 and # 1 contenders by passing valdes, folley, cooper, pastrano, London, #9 liston and #10 dejohn. Ingo already beat cooper, Erskine and would later beat London. Valdes lost to McBride who in 57’ lost to Ingo as did cooper he would beat folley. London beat pastrano. Of that entire top ten only dejohn and Liston were guys ingo would have no winning statistical link to. Not bad out of ten contenders. Its safe to say Ingo paid his dues among the class of 1958-59 premier heavyweights.
　

Originally Posted by mcvey

I'm not saying he should not be in the HOF, that is meaningless to me anyway,just let's not pretend he had a deep resume , because he did not.

For 22 fights before becoming champion ingo did well to meet 8 Ring rated contenders.

[SuzieQ49]

Its safe to say Ingo paid his dues among the class of 1958-59 premier heavyweights.
　

Oh really? He never fought # 2 rated Nino Valdes, who was 6'3 215lb and a very dangerous puncher. Valdes had also cleaned out the entire european HW scene.


Cooper-Folley I was a hometown decision, and Folley blasted cooper out easily in the rematch in 2 rounds.

[jowcol]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

Floyd Patterson supporters trying to build up their man's resume. Simple as that.

As a Patterson lover, I'd like to catch you in a dark alley one night!