Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

[janitor]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Did you miss the ENTIRE premise of the other side.. which relied heavily on the fact that Johnson didn't beat any TRUE HW's and Liston himself was too big and modern for Johnson.

You seem to have missed the part where I unhelpfully pointed out that Johnson actualy beat far more true (200lb+) heavyweights than Liston!

People deploying the size argument in favour of Liston are realy scoring a masive own goal, because Johnson has got it sewn up on size of opposition argument.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Well..Generally, Liston was also always with a big size advantage in his fights.....
Folley, Machen, Patterson...they were that big ?

I don´t rate Johnson too high like many, because IMO his title defenses were poor, but Liston didn´t have even that....He beat a smaller Patterson with all the style advantages on his favor and then lost soundly against Ali...that´s it.

If you wanna make a case to Machen, Folley or Williams as greater HWs than Jeanette, McVey or even that version of Langford....then it´s okay with me, but I wouldn´t feel confortable with it...

Well, Johnson also had a size, age, and weight advantage in many of his fights. While its true Liston did not make many title defense, he pretty much cleaned out the division before getting a shot, then faced a young Ali. I don't think Johnson would defeat the Ali that Liston fought either.

I may be the only one here who thinks this, but Johnson's victory over a 20 year old 156 pound Langford wasn't special. That Langford would not last 6 rounds with Liston.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Well, Johnson also had a size, age, and weight advantage in many of his fights. While its true Liston did not make many title defense, he pretty much cleaned out the division before getting a shot, then faced a young Ali. I don't think Johnson would defeat the Ali that Liston fought either.

I may be the only one here who thinks this, but Johnson's victory over a 20 year old 156 pound Langford wasn't special. That Langford would not last 6 rounds with Liston.

Unlike Jim Jeffries?

N.B. Johnson was the lighter man in 4 of his 10 defences.

N.B. Johnson was the older man in 8 of his 10 defences. He also was the same age as
O Brien.
Only Jeffries was older ,by 3 years.


Johnson gave away.
3 years to Willard.
9 years to Moran.
9 years to Jim Johnson.
8 years to Ketchel.
8 years to Kaufman.
7 years to Ross.
N.B Johnson was 3 years older than Burns whom he took the title off.

[WhyYouLittle]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

he pretty much cleaned out the division before getting a shot, then faced a young Ali. I don't think Johnson would defeat the Ali that Liston fought either.

I think apollack covered this already, didn't he? It's highly unlikely Johnson would get near a title shot at that time without cleaning the division thoroughly, specially considering his personality. As for the young Ali H2H, that's a whole thread in itself (and a thread that would be inconclusive IMO).

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by Seamus

It's based around my protestation that a 185 pound heavyweight beating a 156 pound opponent is not an achievement upon which to hang so much of your hat.

And if so, where are we going to place Young Peter Jackson, who turned the same trick two months later via KO?

Actually that's not close to true Seamus and you know it... You spend most of your post Pre Louis.. with the exception of Tunney/Greb.. and call most of them Farmhands... drunk brawlers... unskilled fighters. Why, because they don't look as "pretty" or seem to have the same technical skill you deem worthy of a fighter today. Thus my analogy of Jesse Owens is spot on.. His 100 yard time was VERY slow in comparison to Bolt.. does that mean he wasn't fast.. or a product of his time? We all know the answer.. you know the answer.. you just dont' want to give it to fighters of the early eras. However, you did concede that Owens was fast for his time and with modern training methods would be fast in any era.. That was concession enough.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by janitor

You seem to have missed the part where I unhelpfully pointed out that Johnson actualy beat far more true (200lb+) heavyweights than Liston!

People deploying the size argument in favour of Liston are realy scoring a masive own goal, because Johnson has got it sewn up on size of opposition argument.

I did not Sir.. as it was spot on and helpful