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Old 08-02-2012, 10:27 AM   #31
Lord Tywin
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Wills totally shut Firpo down and manhandled him on the inside. The one thing Firpo was good at was brute strength and Wills handled Firpo in clinches easily.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #32
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

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The Firpo fight is one of the best infighting displays on film, notwithstanding the knockdowns. Look at the space Dempsey needs to load up shots, and the way he efortlesly works combinations in verry little space.

Wills would have to show me a lot, to convince me that he could play in Dempseys sandpit at this game.
The way he created space and fired off fluid combinations is spectacular and offensively speaking he was the best heavyweight in propably the first 60 years of the sports history.

My issue is that firpo is well known to be something of an unskilled strongman in the squared circle. A top contender of his time, no doubt, but his skillset was very thin.

If someone like that can time dempsey it makes me fear what an intelligent power punching heavyweight could do. He was also timed and dropped against flynn so it's not like we can call it a one off. It seems that overhand right would always trouble jack.

I mean if you were to put him in with rocky, how many right hands could he realistically expect to take?

My main point is that whilst jack consistently demonstrated a superior in-game with those he fought, he didn't fight anyone with a good inside game themselves so it is difficult to gauge his abilities there (aside from the aforementioned athletics).

Wills did fight some great infighters (langford for a start) and although he was largely dominant his opponents were largely past their own prime.

I suppose the question is could you imagine wills timing jack on the way in with a big right hand?
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:06 AM   #33
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The way he created space and fired off fluid combinations is spectacular and offensively speaking he was the best heavyweight in propably the first 60 years of the sports history.
Not a chance

Louis >>>>>>>> Dempsey
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:14 AM   #34
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Not a chance

Louis >>>>>>>> Dempsey
Ofcourse. How does that disagree with what I said?

Infact louis is the reason for the cutoff. I think offensively dempsey what the best heavyweight up until louis came along.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:15 AM   #35
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

I stand corrected
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

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My issue is that firpo is well known to be something of an unskilled strongman in the squared circle. A top contender of his time, no doubt, but his skillset was very thin.
I think that the extent to which Firpo is criticised by many people has reached the level of absurdity.

Yes, he was rough and scrappy like most South American heavyweights, but that dosn't mean that he didn't have a distinct skillset. If nothing else, he was sneaky and unpredictable.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:49 AM   #37
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I think that the extent to which Firpo is criticised by many people has reached the level of absurdity.

Yes, he was rough and scrappy like most South American heavyweights, but that dosn't mean that he didn't have a distinct skillset. If nothing else, he was sneaky and unpredictable.
Unpredictable certainly. He was strong, rugged and hard hitting.

I think you'd be hard pressed presenting any footage or writeups portraying him as a skilled operator.

The main point being, as far as counter punchers go, firpo is somewhere on the lower rungs.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #38
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Unpredictable certainly. He was strong, rugged and hard hitting.

I think you'd be hard pressed presenting any footage or writeups portraying him as a skilled operator.

The main point being, as far as counter punchers go, firpo is somewhere on the lower rungs.
Again, all world class fighters have skillsets even if their style is crude.

A guy like Firpo will typically not get to the top, unless he has deceptive skills in feinting and setting up counters, which is precisely what we see.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

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I think that the extent to which Firpo is criticised by many people has reached the level of absurdity.

Yes, he was rough and scrappy like most South American heavyweights, but that dosn't mean that he didn't have a distinct skillset. If nothing else, he was sneaky and unpredictable.
He was an extremely strong, hard punching with a crushing right , awkward brute with a ton of heart who was in the best condition of his life against Dempsey and fought the fight of his life against Dempsey .. for that fight , that night he was a very dangerous man ... for most of the rest of his career he barely trained , looked it and performed like it ..
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

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Again, all world class fighters have skillsets even if their style is crude.

A guy like Firpo will typically not get to the top, unless he has deceptive skills in feinting and setting up counters, which is precisely what we see.
A guy like that would not get to the top any more. Plain and simple.

He managed it in his era because boxing hadn't yet evolved to the sport it has become.

I don't think i'd be far wrong calling him one of the least skilled top 4 contenders in heavyweight history.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:15 PM   #41
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A guy like that would not get to the top any more. Plain and simple.

He managed it in his era because boxing hadn't yet evolved to the sport it has become.

I don't think i'd be far wrong calling him one of the least skilled top 4 contenders in heavyweight history.

I am sorry but thatís total BS.

The more we have moved towards bigger heavyweights in recent years, the more that skill sets generally have become more basic. Firpo was fighting in an era where there were smaller fighters in the heavyweight division, who were by and large far better technicians.

Just about the only thing I would agree with here, is that he was one of the least skilled top 4 contenders in heavyweight history, but that is all he would need to be today.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NN0vGHnCLo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NN0vGHnCLo[/ame]

come off it Janitor, ffs. These two are absolutely dire
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:36 PM   #43
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

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I am sorry but thatís total BS.

The more we have moved towards bigger heavyweights in recent years, the more that skill sets generally have become more basic. Firpo was fighting in an era where there were smaller fighters in the heavyweight division, who were by and large far better technicians.

Just about the only thing I would agree with here, is that he was one of the least skilled top 4 contenders in heavyweight history, but that is all he would need to be today.
That is nonsense mate and you know it. Superheavyweights today are infinitely more skilled than they were in those days.

Take the top 4 today. You have Wlad and Povetkin both olympic gold medalists. You have Vitali who's probably a top 40 heavyweight. And you have Haye who won a silver at the world amateur's and unified the cw division.

A modern equivalent to firpo is larry olubamwio (sp.) a strong man who can bang but doesn't really have any visible skills.

Firpo wouldn't break the top ten today and I think we both know this. My main point is it is hard to gauge jack's inside game when firpo is the main showcase. A showcase who nearly knocked him out.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:47 PM   #44
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Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

If Firpo was as bad as people make out it doesn't say much for Harry Wills.

There's absolute no excuse for an elite contender failing to stop an out-of-shape 'strong man' with ZERO BOXING ABILITY.
Wills was only a couple of years past his best after all.
It's not like we're talking 'Butterbean Holmes' here ..... and by the sounds of it Firpo wasn't even as good as Butterbean.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:56 PM   #45
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If Firpo was as bad as people make out it doesn't say much for Harry Wills.

There's absolute no excuse for an elite contender failing to stop an out-of-shape 'strong man' with ZERO BOXING ABILITY.
Wills was only a couple of years past his best after all.
It's not like we're talking 'Butterbean Holmes' here ..... and by the sounds of it Firpo wasn't even as good as Butterbean.
Wills got criticised for his lacklustre victory over firpo.

I didn't know he was out of shape for that fight though, do you have any sources for that?

He was highly ranked in his era, that's beyond dispute. But he's also quite clearly one of the least skilled top contenders in history.
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