Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-02-2012, 01:11 PM   #46
Legend X
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,378
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Wills got criticised for his lacklustre victory over firpo.

I didn't know he was out of shape for that fight though, do you have any sources for that?

He was highly ranked in his era, that's beyond dispute. But he's also quite clearly one of the least skilled top contenders in history.

Here's a write-up of the entire fight :

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Wills easily beat him, but he also got hit quite a bit as far as this report says.

Firpo was 224 pounds. He was 216 against Dempsey.
Apparently he turned up for training camp in awful condition just three weeks before the fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Legend X is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #47
Legend X
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,378
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Wills got criticised for his lacklustre victory over firpo.
Yes, and Dempsey got critcized by the boxing afficianados for neglecting his skills against Firpo .... (he was only half forgiven because it made an exciting fight).

Nevertheless, people here will use the worst parts of that one fight to try to prove that Dempsey was a bit of an "unskilled brawler" too.

It smacks of double standards, but that's what makes this forum tick on I suppose.
Legend X is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 01:26 PM   #48
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Yes, and Dempsey got critcized by the boxing afficianados for neglecting his skills against Firpo .... (he was only half forgiven because it made an exciting fight).

Nevertheless, people here will use the worst parts of that one fight to try to prove that Dempsey was a bit of an "unskilled brawler" too.

It smacks of double standards, but that's what makes this forum tick on I suppose.
No, I said firpo was an unskilled brawler, not dempsey.

It is difficult to gauge how great dempsey was at infighting considering the best infighter he fought was firpo.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 01:31 PM   #49
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Wills easily beat Firpo. He dropped him in the second round and dominated him throughout.

When Firpo tried to get inside and bang away and wrestle with his strength (the one asset he had) Wills tied him up and moved him around like he was a lightweight. All the while Wills banged away at his ribs slowing Firpo down perceptably.

The few times Firpo managed to land a big punch it had no effect on Wills whatsoever.

Wills got criticised because he didnt stop Wills like Dempsey did but he fought a different fight than Dempsey and didnt nearly get knocked out like Dempsey either.

Finally, as big as Firpo was Wills was at least as big yet he could also box on the outside, or fight on the inside against a strong brawler, despite what some people think.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:36 PM   #50
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,044
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
That is nonsense mate and you know it. Superheavyweights today are infinitely more skilled than they were in those days.

Take the top 4 today. You have Wlad and Povetkin both olympic gold medalists. You have Vitali who's probably a top 40 heavyweight. And you have Haye who won a silver at the world amateur's and unified the cw division.
You can handpick big guys who had better skills than Firpo today, but then you can in his own era. The fact is that the top 10 over the last decade has mainly consisted of fighters with a big punch and a limited skills set.

Quote:
A modern equivalent to firpo is larry olubamwio (sp.) a strong man who can bang but doesn't really have any visible skills.

Firpo wouldn't break the top ten today and I think we both know this. My main point is it is hard to gauge jack's inside game when firpo is the main showcase. A showcase who nearly knocked him out.
One of the worst statments that can come from a poster is "fighter X would not break the top 10 today". If somebody says this, then you can bet your last penny that they have not thought about it for more than 10 seconds.

The most passing analysis will show you that absolutely awful fighters can break the top 10 in any era, and they don't necisarily have to beat anybody in the top 30 to do it.

I expect better than this from you!
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:49 PM   #51
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

[quote=janitor;13502331]
Quote:


You can handpick big guys who had better skills than Firpo today, but then you can in his own era. The fact is that the top 10 over the last decade has mainly consisted of fighters with a big punch and a limited skills set.



One of the worst statments that can come from a poster is "fighter X would not break the top 10 today". If somebody says this, then you can bet your last penny that they have not thought about it for more than 10 seconds.

The most passing analysis will show you that absolutely awful fighters can break the top 10 in any era, and they don't necisarily have to beat anybody in the top 30 to do it.

I expect better than this from you!
I was just talking about today because you mentioned it.

I wholly disagree that most heavyweights today are just big punchers with no skills.

By that statement I meant if you were to match him with say david price, i'd expect price to do him inside 6 rounds.

Sure if he got hype and an unbeaten run, he could break the top 5 (as arreola did).

This still detracts from my initial point though. When comparing wills on the inside with dempsey on the inside it isn't just simply a foregone conclusion.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 02:55 PM   #52
Legend X
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,378
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
No, I said firpo was an unskilled brawler, not dempsey.

It is difficult to gauge how great dempsey was at infighting considering the best infighter he fought was firpo.
How can Firpo be the best infighter he fought when Firpo was 'completely unskilled' ?

Firpo's best (only?) weapon seemed to be a heavy right hand thrown from way out.
Legend X is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 03:01 PM   #53
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
How can Firpo be the best infighter he fought when Firpo was 'completely unskilled' ?

Firpo's best (only?) weapon seemed to be a heavy right hand thrown from way out.
That right there is my point. As spectacular as he looks inside, he never fought a good infighter.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 03:03 PM   #54
Legend X
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,378
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
That right there is my point. As spectacular as he looks inside, he never fought a good infighter.
He had loads of fights. How do you know he never fought a good infighter ?
Legend X is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 03:08 PM   #55
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
He had loads of fights. How do you know he never fought a good infighter ?
Show me a fight of him winning an inside battle with a good infighter.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 03:15 PM   #56
Legend X
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,378
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Show me a fight of him winning an inside battle with a good infighter.
Show me a fight of Wills or Greb.

Very few Dempsey fights exist on film. And the fact that few fighters elected to fight him on the inside might suggest that he was too good there and they fought smart. rather than they were just lousy infighters.
Legend X is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #57
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Show me a fight of Wills or Greb.

Very few Dempsey fights exist on film. And the fact that few fighters elected to fight him on the inside might suggest that he was too good there and they fought smart. rather than they were just lousy infighters.
I can't show you any of wills, which brings me back to the initial point the dempsey winning the inside battle against wills should not be a foregone conclusion
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 12:10 PM   #58
Boilermaker
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,961
vCash: 685
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
He had loads of fights. How do you know he never fought a good infighter ?
He doesnt know, because it is simply wrong.

I find it hard to believe that Sam Langford wasnt a good infighter

I know there is some clearly some devils advocate being played here by a few, but i think poor old lufcrazy forgot to think before writing on this one.
Boilermaker is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 12:49 PM   #59
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,605
vCash: 330
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
He doesnt know, because it is simply wrong.

I find it hard to believe that Sam Langford wasnt a good infighter

I know there is some clearly some devils advocate being played here by a few, but i think poor old lufcrazy forgot to think before writing on this one.
Oh dear, you've made a right tit of yourself there pal. when did Dempsey fight Langford?
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 02:18 PM   #60
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What sort of fighter was Harry Wills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
If Firpo was as bad as people make out it doesn't say much for Harry Wills.

There's absolute no excuse for an elite contender failing to stop an out-of-shape 'strong man' with ZERO BOXING ABILITY.
Wills was only a couple of years past his best after all.
It's not like we're talking 'Butterbean Holmes' here ..... and by the sounds of it Firpo wasn't even as good as Butterbean.
It's a bit over the top criticising a dominating performance, KO or no KO. Wills was considered past his best against Firpo. Maybe it's a testiment to Firpo's toughness, power and strength, but I suspect Wills no longer had the same speed and stamina to finish him in '25, when he was around 35 I believe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Show me a fight of Wills or Greb.

Very few Dempsey fights exist on film. And the fact that few fighters elected to fight him on the inside might suggest that he was too good there and they fought smart. rather than they were just lousy infighters.
Langford was a world class in-fighter. Not sure who the best in-fighter Dempsey beat, Sharkey maybe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
By that statement I meant if you were to match him with say david price, i'd expect price to do him inside 6 rounds..
I'd go with that, although Price is talented and could go on to be champion. I think Vitali, Wlad, Haye, Chambers, Povetkin, Solis, Helanius, Arreola, Adamek, Chagaev, Chisora, Price, Fury all beat Prime Firpo and a few LHW's like Dawson probably could
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Yes, and Dempsey got critcized by the boxing afficianados for neglecting his skills against Firpo .... (he was only half forgiven because it made an exciting fight).

Nevertheless, people here will use the worst parts of that one fight to try to prove that Dempsey was a bit of an "unskilled brawler" too.

It smacks of double standards, but that's what makes this forum tick on I suppose.
This is a different issue, when Dempsey fought both Firpo and Brennan defensive weaknesses were exposed as they were more dramatically against Tunney. Wills while he couldn't put Firpo away was in control of the action and didn't suffer any KDs. Maybe watching the match up would highlight weaknesses and maybe not.

We don't know how good Wills was but if anything it smacks of bias when Dempsey fans they believe he had the style to beat Wills. When they don't really know anything about Wills style or overall ability. Imagine if Wills was like Bowe on the inside but as good as Holmes outside, he could have been that good for all we know. Or maybe he was of a similar level to John Ruiz who in turn has a good resume himself. Simply we don't know how good Wills was or who would have won if he fought Dempsey, we have no idea although reading fight transcripts enlighten us somewhat, the only thing we know is that both fighters were far and away the best of their era and they didn't meet
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013