Do you think Judo is somewhat a misused martial art in terms of MMA ??

[Big Red]

Originally Posted by EDDIE FUTCH

I don't see a lot of feints/traps to initiate throws (the only guy I can think of who feints well in whole body control is Demian Maia, and he ain't exactly a judo guy)

JDS
Chuck Liddell...for a while...

That should be a bigger part of Judo and many other sports then it is. I think part of the problem is these guys are so athletic that they don't need to use feints and traps to win, but it would serve them very well if they did more of it. A lot of these guys just steam roll everone till one day they meet their match. Necessity is the mother of invention.

In Judo you are taught to get your opponent to push or pull and use that energy against them, a lot of guys don't learn to do that right.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by geppy

Lol, like the UFC if going to make everyone wear a Judo GI so the Judo players can have a chance to use their throws.

Your statement was too general, hence me narrowing it down. I was agreeing with your sentiment that there are good reasons why judo doesn't show up much in MMA. Dipshit.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Primate

I trained in Judo for a short time a while ago, and this is very much the truth.

Originally Posted by Koa

Extensively as a kid. For me it wasn't about grip, maybe because we were still boys. It was about hips, timing, timing when you step to shift weight to catch your opponent off balance. Like if you can time when someone is going to step, if you shift them you can throw them off balance and go for a move that you are already good at.

You time a guy trying to step in, you can pull him and use his momentum against him to come forward, that is when you execute a throw or trip. What is strange is that you just sort of feel the timing after a while. A lot of the time you are just sort of feeling your opponent out and waiting for an opportunity to catch him by surprise, or make a mistake.

You guys have tried this with guys not wearing anything you can grab onto? The key to the throws has to do with hips and balance and timing (just like most sport, actually) but it's a hell of a lot harder to get to that point against a guy you can't get a hold of. It's much easier to shoot for a leg in that case which is why most judo guys in mma end up using more wrestling moves than judo (see the Gamburian fight from last night).

[Primate]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

You guys have tried this with guys not wearing anything you can grab onto? The key to the throws has to do with hips and balance and timing (just like most sport, actually) but it's a hell of a lot harder to get to that point against a guy you can't get a hold of. It's much easier to shoot for a leg in that case which is why most judo guys in mma end up using more wrestling moves than judo (see the Gamburian fight from last night).

We actually did some no gi training while I was there, and even with guys that'd normally toss me around like a rag doll all of a sudden we were a lot more evenly matched. That's when greco-roman syle clinch work comes into it, getting in tight and trying to secure underhooks. Still, their grip, balance and timing was phenomenal.

[rusty nails]

Originally Posted by EDDIE FUTCH

I don't see a lot of feints/traps to initiate throws (the only guy I can think of who feints well in whole body control is Demian Maia, and he ain't exactly a judo guy)

JDS
Chuck Liddell...for a while...

demian trained for years in judo

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Primate

We actually did some no gi training while I was there, and even with guys that'd normally toss me around like a rag doll all of a sudden we were a lot more evenly matched. That's when greco-roman syle clinch work comes into it, getting in tight and trying to secure underhooks. Still, their grip, balance and timing was phenomenal.

This is 100% what I've found. Judo is great for balance and "feeling" out momentum and such, but the actual throws are much harder and things like GR wrestling that train for no-gi situations are more practical.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

You guys have tried this with guys not wearing anything you can grab onto? The key to the throws has to do with hips and balance and timing (just like most sport, actually) but it's a hell of a lot harder to get to that point against a guy you can't get a hold of. It's much easier to shoot for a leg in that case which is why most judo guys in mma end up using more wrestling moves than judo (see the Gamburian fight from last night).

Yep, in an mma match you really need to be something special to pull off and showcase the flashy judo moves with consistency. But a good judoka should come out on top or be very competitive with a greco wrestler in a lot of clinch situations. There are also sooo many variations, some of which may be legit mma techniques if someone just shows them or makes the changes to make them useful for mma. There are also a lot of moves that may not be recognized as judo, like inside leg sweep because other disciplines use it also. Sometimes it's hard to recognize but I think you are completely right about the more obvious eye catching judo throws that everyone loves to see.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Koa

Yep, in an mma match you really need to be something special to pull off and showcase the flashy judo moves with consistency. But a good judoka should come out on top or be very competitive with a greco wrestler in a lot of clinch situations. There are also sooo many variations, some of which may be legit mma techniques if someone just shows them or makes the changes to make them useful for mma. There are also a lot of moves that may not be recognized as judo, like inside leg sweep because other disciplines use it also. Sometimes it's hard to recognize but I think you are completely right about the more obvious eye catching judo throws that everyone loves to see.

I made this argument on another board once and got flamed for it, but it's silly to talk about figher X's "boxing" or fighter Y's "wrestling" when a) what their doing isn't boxing or wrestling, it's mma and b) the way that they learned to do what they're doing may not have every been boxing or wrestling. GSP has great takedowns and can control guys well on the ground, but he never wrestled in his life. To say that a guy like Matt Mitrione who has a great quick straight left hand is a good "boxer" when he only learned this stuff for mma makes no sense. Rory Macdonald is great at tons of thing but never learned them individually, just in the context of mma. What you're saying here is a perfect example. I forget the formal name for it, but the judo head throw gets called a "judo throw" in mma all the time when you find the same move in wrestling as well as any schoolyard in the world. It's a totally intuitive way to get someone down but somehow it gets called "judo" whether or not the guy doing it has ever meet a judoka. Referring to what the people are actually doing (takedowns from the clinch, takedowns from outside, punching etc) rather than mapping them onto some martial art/sport would make things a lot more honest and clear.

[EDDIE FUTCH]

Originally Posted by Big Red

That should be a bigger part of Judo and many other sports then it is. I think part of the problem is these guys are so athletic that they don't need to use feints and traps to win, but it would serve them very well if they did more of it. A lot of these guys just steam roll everone till one day they meet their match. Necessity is the mother of invention.

In Judo you are taught to get your opponent to push or pull and use that energy against them, a lot of guys don't learn to do that right.

I think they've forgotten/gotten lazy/were never taught the principle behind it. It's like when they throw the Superman punch nowadays, there's not even a proper attempt to fake the low kick.

I know, I've used it myself to about 70% effectiveness in *cough* *cough* *hack* *hack* my shoddy aikido and wing chun. Mind you, only against boozed up machos or hyped up young guys. It's amazing how much a strategic chest shove will yield back in 'resisting' energy - Thank you very much for the momentum!

Originally Posted by rusty nails

demian trained for years in judo

My bad (falls back on noobiness)

[Big Red]

Originally Posted by EDDIE FUTCH

I think they've forgotten/gotten lazy/were never taught the principle behind it. It's like when they throw the Superman punch nowadays, there's not even a proper attempt to fake the low kick.

I know, I've used it myself to about 70% effectiveness in *cough* *cough* *hack* *hack* my shoddy aikido and wing chun. Mind you, only against boozed up machos or hyped up young guys. It's amazing how much a strategic chest shove will yield back in 'resisting' energy - Thank you very much for the momentum!



My bad (falls back on noobiness)

Yeah, I grew up watching baseball and I remember Buck Martinez explaining pitching all the time and how important the change up was. And I applied it to the sports I played and did pretty well.

If you can learn that its real easy to play sports, but not to many people want to use tricks to win. They want to win with their physical gifts, even in Judo which is not suppose to be about that. Judo is suppose to mean the "gental way".

[EDDIE FUTCH]

Originally Posted by Big Red

...
If you can learn that its real easy to play sports, but not to many people want to use tricks to win. They want to win with their physical gifts, even in Judo which is not suppose to be about that. Judo is suppose to mean the "gental way".

Yeah, watching some of these MMA guys fight to a standstill/stalemate against the cage was akin to watching my father try to bulldoze his way thru a child-proof pill bottle

Having said that (& going back to Vic's original post), I've caught whatever little meagre offerings of Olympic judo my local station has offered up, and it looks like some of these guys are trying to 'force' their way too

[SlicedAlone]

I was thinking about this the other day. Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but it seems like Fedor always went for throws over shots.

[Muchmoore]

Originally Posted by SlicedAlone

I was thinking about this the other day. Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but it seems like Fedor always went for throws over shots.

Yeah I saw a vid with him talking about it at a practice and he was saying he doesn't like them because they tire you out moreso and even if they succeed you don't end in as an advantagous position as a throw.

He does have a point actually but it's a preference thing imo both have their uses.