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Old 08-03-2012, 12:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Hitting on the break and throwing down a middle weight more than once? Johnson wasn't a stranger to such tactics. It appears Johnson 1st knockdown over Burns came from hitting him on the break, and you can see him repeat the cheap shot on film vs. Moran.

in 1909, Johnson was in his prime for sure. But he had issues with O'Brien's jab. Makes you wonder what would happen if Johnson fought a bigger skilled jabber.


The Fight By Rounds
First Round – Johnson rushed, forcing O’Brien to the ropes. O’Brien clinched. O’Brien jabbed Johnson on nose and then repeated. Johnson threw O’Brien to the ground, then dropped him with left to stomach, but he was up in two seconds. O’Brien jabbed two light lefts to face. Johnson is waiting for O’Brien to lead and he laughed as he struck a straight left. O’Brien put in two right lefts on face and then another. Johnson sent straight left to face and repeated it. O’Brien stabbed left to mouth and hooked left to face. Johnson blocked left swing for head and crossed right to jaw. Bell.

Second round – Johnson sent two rights to the body and was warned for hitting on the break. O’Brien jabbed left to face and Johnson missed three rights to body and sent right to head. O’Brien sent light left swing to ear and Johnson shot left to ribs. O’Brien crossed right to jaw. Johnson forgot to smile. O’Brien jabbed left to mouth. Johnson rushed O’Brien to ropes. They clinched and O’Brien jabbed left to eye. Johnson ducked a left swing and then O’Brien sent stiff left to mouth twice. Johnson swung right to chest and then to jaw. Bell.

Third Round – Johnson jabbed left to face and O’Brien sent two lefts to nose. O’Brien hooked left to ear twice and they clinched. O’Brien jabbed left to eye and Johnson whipped left to wind. O’Brien sent left to face and Johnson shot right to ribs. Johnson swung left to chest and stabbed left to face. O’Brien put light left on eye and sent right to heart. Johnson sent right to body and O’Brien hooked left to mouth. O’Brien jabbed left to face and Johnson missed half dozen swings to head. O’Brien sent left to neck and the bell rang as they clinched.

Fourth Round – O’Brien jabbed left to mouth and Johnson swing both hands to head. Johnson swung two lefts to chest and O’Brien jabbed left to face. Johnson missed three lefts for body and O’Brien jabbed left to mouth. Johnson missed a vicious right swing for jaw. Johnson shot right to heart and staggered O’Brien with a right to ear. O’Brien recovered quickly and jabbed a left to face. O’Brien jabbed left to face and swung right to body. Johnson missed two lefts for head and then stood waiting for O’Brien to lead. They were clinched at the bell.

Fifth Round – O’Brien jabbed left to nose and Johnson threw him to the floor. Johnson shot left-hand punches to head and jaw. O’Brien swung left to chest and put light left on face. Johnson was hissed for his tactics. Johnson shot hard right to wind. O’Brien jabbed left to face. They exchanged jabs to head and Johnson missed hard left for wind. O’Brien jabbed two hard lefts to face and then another, Johnson missed right for body and jabbed left to face. O’Brien swung two lefts to head at bell.

Sixth Round – They shook hands gingerly and then clinched. Johnson jabbed left to face and swung right to chest. O’Brien sent hard left to wind. Johnson chased O’Brien around the ring, but missed him. Johnson put light left on face and each swung left to body. Each missed left for body and O’Brien sent left to face. Johnson jabbed left to face and uppercut right to chin. They exchanged right swings to head and O’Brien put left on face. Johnson blocked O’Brien’s lead. They clinched. Johnson jolted two rights to chin. O’Brien jabbed left to face. O’Brien put light left to face at bell.
Was hitting on the break legal in these contests?

If so, maybe it is a skill that modern fighters have no idea about and would really struggle with? If not, again, maybe the modern fighters might still struggle with the tactic, if an old time referee were used?
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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It was a championship fight for the heavyweight crown, right? Just a little significance.

But let's give Johnson a pass.
why give him a pass? he fought a shitty fight knowing he weren't gonna get knocked out. It was deplorable.

I'm saying that technically speaking, a 6 round fight means little to me.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

Straight Queensberry rules allowed hitting in clinches and on breaks. That is where the phrase "Protect yourself at all times" came from. If the fighters wanted to modify the rules, they usually needed to negotiate it before the fight, and typically such a modification was announced to the crowd, or at least that was best practice, so that the folks knew if a fighter was being fouled or not. Sometimes crowds thought it was a modified rules with clean breaks fight, but it was not, so they might boo if someone got struck on the break. Hence you'll see reporters question why the crowd booed, and note that what the boxer did was perfectly legal. Generally referees favored straight rules, and did not have much sympathy for fighters who got hit during the fight, even on the break. Bottom line is it was a fight and a fighter needed to defend himself at all times, and if he could not, then tough luck. Sometimes they advertised clean breaks to satisfy the law, but wound up fighting straight rules anyhow.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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why give him a pass? he fought a shitty fight knowing he weren't gonna get knocked out. It was deplorable.

I'm saying that technically speaking, a 6 round fight means little to me.
Yes it was, he conned the paying public.
But, given the terms of the fight, perhaps they should have been a little less naive ?
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Yes it was, he conned the paying public.
But, given the terms of the fight, perhaps they should have been a little less naive ?
no, as seamus said, it was advertised as a world title bout.

100 years on I can say it doesn't mean much when evaluating the guys career/skillset. but to those paying money, they'd every right to expect a better fight.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:44 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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why give him a pass? he fought a shitty fight knowing he weren't gonna get knocked out. It was deplorable.

I'm saying that technically speaking, a 6 round fight means little to me.
I'm trying to be friends here and play along.

His effort and or abilities in this fight do not fit the dominant and so hotly desired narrative here of Jack Johnson being an indomitable force. I am just trying to do my utmost to keep the narrative seamless and consistent.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

His credentials to being a dominate force are certainly far and above that of Liston's.. that much we know.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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I'm trying to be friends here and play along.

His effort and or abilities in this fight do not fit the dominant and so hotly desired narrative here of Jack Johnson being an indomitable force. I am just trying to do my utmost to keep the narrative seamless and consistent.
your right, the way he performed in this fight does not fit with the picture portrayed by the day's media. I just don't put much credence in a 6 rounder, can't bring myself to do it.

Had O'Brien won 3 rounds and had 1 round even, would that make him the best hw in the world? I can't stomach that thought.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about this fight. I'll have a great deal about it in my upcoming book on Jack Johnson. Lets just say there were many different perspectives on this one.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about this fight. I'll have a great deal about it in my upcoming book on Jack Johnson. Lets just say there were many different perspectives on this one.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions about this fight. I'll have a great deal about it in my upcoming book on Jack Johnson. Lets just say there were many different perspectives on this one.
Looking forward to it.

I'm starting to read another of yours this weekend.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

I don't know how much weight you can put into this singular report.

There were press reports of a clear Johnson victory, others had it adraw and those who sided with O'Brien like this home town publishing would practically call it a victory for Jack.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:05 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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I don't know how much weight you can put into this singular report.

There were press reports of a clear Johnson victory, others had it adraw and those who sided with O'Brien like this home town publishing would practically call it a victory for Jack.
The New York Times report was much the same for what it's worth.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I'm trying to be friends here and play along.

His effort and or abilities in this fight do not fit the dominant and so hotly desired narrative here of Jack Johnson being an indomitable force. I am just trying to do my utmost to keep the narrative seamless and consistent.
Jack Johnson is known for taking his time with fighters and wearing them down in the longer term he did not win fights early very often. People tend to forget that Jack O Brien was good enough to be considered a former World Alphabet champion. Similar in standing probably to say, Hasim Rahman. Do those who criticise Johnson in this fight, also think criticise Wlad's performance against Hasim Rahman, which for all intensive purposes was a ND6 after 6 rounds.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:20 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Phil. Jack O'Brien - May 1909

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Jack Johnson is known for taking his time with fighters and wearing them down in the longer term he did not win fights early very often. People tend to forget that Jack O Brien was good enough to be considered a former World Alphabet champion. Similar in standing probably to say, Hasim Rahman. Do those who criticise Johnson in this fight, also think criticise Wlad's performance against Hasim Rahman, which for all intensive purposes was a ND6 after 6 rounds.
what the absolute ****?

I must re-ask my previous question, are you high?
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