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Old 08-04-2012, 05:18 PM   #16
hookfromhell
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Yes, Holyfield was younger and friskier in the early 90s, valid point, but I think that gets counteracted by his far superior experience against elite opposition during those years, including against some very hard punchers, which made him fight sharp, as opposed to Tyson, who was sitting on the shelf for nearly four years, and then had only a few very short and almost noncompetitive bouts prior to Holy. Plus, there is a very big factor that some might be overlooking, which is that Holy in the early 90s was smaller, but the Holy that fought Tyson was a rock solid 218 and quite frankly looked like he was on something.
Yeah pretty sure Holy was juicing, he was huge, bigger than Tyson!
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

Perhaps the most interesting "what if", is "what would it have ment for their legacies"?

If Tyson looses to Holyfield instead of Douglas, then he has lost to a worthy conqueror.

In that scenario Tysons stock goes up, and the worth of Holyfields win goes up.

They likley both end up ranked in the top 5 on most lists!
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

Holyfield was a different fighter as well.

He had more quickness in `91 and was in his physical prime. At the same time I dont think Evander was as strong as he would get later on. At that time Holyfield was fighting at around 205-209lbs.

He had a different style as well. In those early years at Heavy Holyfield was still fighting like a cruiserweight/smaller man. He threw alot of flurries and beautiful combinations but he also wasted alot of energy trying to move bigger guys.

Later he sat down more on his shots and became a better puncher as well as learning some tricks on the inside.

At the same time by `91 Tyson was already fading. He was just a bomber at that point. The headmovement wasnt there. The combinations were not the same. He tightened up, threw one or two big shots at a time and rested on the inside.

The Ruddock fights were a mirage in a sense. Razor Ruddock was a strong guy but he was so easy to read being one handed and having no boxing skills Tyson was able to pick him apart.

At the end of the day I think Holyfield would survive Tyson`s power and take him out late or win a decision. He might even have to get up off the canvas to do it. Too much will to win and too much desire to lose to Tyson at that time. Or anytime really,
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by apollack View Post
Yes, Holyfield was younger and friskier in the early 90s, valid point, but I think that gets counteracted by his far superior experience against elite opposition during those years, including against some very hard punchers, which made him fight sharp, as opposed to Tyson, who was sitting on the shelf for nearly four years, and then had only a few very short and almost noncompetitive bouts prior to Holy. Plus, there is a very big factor that some might be overlooking, which is that Holy in the early 90s was smaller, but the Holy that fought Tyson was a rock solid 218 and quite frankly looked like he was on something.
Well, he was 215 when he beat Tyson up, and about 210 in 1990.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:20 AM   #20
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

I had a lot of $$$ on Commander Vander when Tyson pulled out of their fight. I thought here was a guy that you had little doubt about in the sense that he was going to show up for that bout in absolute perfect condition and as well prepared as possible w/ the tutelage of George Benton. I was confident he was going into the fight for a career best performance on that night.

I don't think Mike Tyson can beat a career best night of Evander Holyfield and the second half of the fight would be very difficult for Mike to survive, let alone win. Just as rounds 1-3 might be tough on Holyfield, rounds 9-12 were going to be far rougher on Tyson.


The timeframe would not have been a whole lot different than their scheduled bout. Think about it---if it was Holyfield that pulled out of that fight and Tyson went to prison, how would things be interpreted?

And even with a rib injury, I thought Tyson should have gone through with the bout anyway. It was for the heavyweight title and prison was a few days away. This is that tough time in a career when 1 guy has the right to be called "champion". To me, that was Holyfield and it was a changing of the guard time when Mike choose to pull out of a huge huge fight and we the boxing fans suffered. Sure Mike would have had to dig deep and overcome an obstacle--Evander had against Womack as an amateur and against Qawi. Time for Mike to rise to the occasion.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:46 AM   #21
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Well, he was 215 when he beat Tyson up, and about 210 in 1990.
My recollection is Holy was 218. But it isn't a matter of sheer numbers. It is the quality and type of muscle. Holy was freakishly large and muscular and ripped all combined against Tyson. He looked like he was about to pop or burst out of himself he was so big. Like someone else said, he looked bigger than Tyson in every way, even though their weights were the same. And I just can't get it out of my head that "Evan Fields" was a BALCO client. Plus I know Evander was weight training with guys like Lee Haney, and everyone knows that 95% of those Mr. Olympia humongous guys juice in some way or the other, and I imagine such types would likely have suggested doing so to Evander, a man who certainly had enough $ to pay for it. Remember, Evander was an Olympian at 178, world champ at 190, fought Bowe the first time at 205. Still looked like an absolute rock at 218. Is it possible for guys to go up that much and still look pretty good? Sure. But to go up that much and still be THAT ripped and muscular looking, with massive shoulders and deltoids? Not so sure.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Well, he was 215 when he beat Tyson up, and about 210 in 1990.
But he was 205 for Bowe.
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

Tyson in his prime, 1986-1988, would be tested like never before against Holyfield. And lets be honest, Tyson deflates after being dropped and in trouble. Once Douglas got up from that knockdown, Tyson evaporated. Even during the first Holyfield fight, when cut and dropped halfway though the fight, he came apart. Tyson was a great front runner, but not so good when up against it. Holyfield would always have beaten him.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

A great video on Tyson on the Charlie Rose show with Jack Newfield and Teddy Atlas.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
Tyson in his prime, 1986-1988, would be tested like never before against Holyfield. And lets be honest, Tyson deflates after being dropped and in trouble. Once Douglas got up from that knockdown, Tyson evaporated. Even during the first Holyfield fight, when cut and dropped halfway though the fight, he came apart. Tyson was a great front runner, but not so good when up against it. Holyfield would always have beaten him.


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A great video on Tyson on the Charlie Rose show with Jack Newfield and Teddy Atlas.
You certainly have an arguable point, however, 86-88 Tyson
had the punching power, speed, and technique to demolish
any version of Holyfield. Tysons chin was insane too. 91 is
the most intriguing time for the matchup imo. Ive read on
ESB forum that when the douglass rematch fell through,
several fighters including Lewis refused to fight Mike, and
Evander was the only one who was game. Anyone back that
up? Anyway 91 would be a great scrap. Tyson tko 9
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by hookfromhell View Post
You certainly have an arguable point, however, 86-88 Tyson
had the punching power, speed, and technique to demolish
any version of Holyfield
. Tysons chin was insane too. 91 is
the most intriguing time for the matchup imo. Ive read on
ESB forum that when the douglass rematch fell through,
several fighters including Lewis refused to fight Mike, and
Evander was the only one who was game. Anyone back that
up? Anyway 91 would be a great scrap. Tyson tko 9
Demolish? Not too sure about that.

The Douglas rematch was never penciled in. Holyfield was the man waiting on the sidelines to fight the winner of Tyson-Douglas. If memory serves me correctly, Holyfield agreed to step aside for Douglas to fight Tyson. So, Holyfield got his deserved shot at the heavyweight title against Douglas.

You are obviously talking about 1990 for the Douglas rematch falling through, which wasn't the case anyway.

Last edited by Robbi; 08-05-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by hookfromhell View Post
Ive read on
ESB forum that when the douglass rematch fell through,
several fighters including Lewis refused to fight Mike,
and
Evander was the only one who was game. Anyone back that
up? Anyway 91 would be a great scrap. Tyson tko 9
Lewis in 1990 had been a pro for merely 2 years. Can you blame him if that was the case? You are mentioning a fighter who was extremely inexperienced here.

The only time that Lewis and Tyson could have possibly happened was after Tyson got out of jail. As when Lewis beat Ruddock in 1992, Tyson was banged up in an Indiana prison cell. This was the case right through 1993-1994. By the time Tyson got out of jail, Lewis was on the comeback road after the McCall defeat. He was fighting the likes of Butler, Fortune and Morrison throughout 1995. Tyson was also on the comeback trail during the same year against McNeely and Mathis.

So during 1995, Lewis had three fights after the McCall defeat. Tyson had two tune up fights after being in prison.

Lewis beat Lionel Butler in a WBC-ordered elimination bout in May, 1995. But the WBC maintained that Tyson became the top contender after he was released from prison in March 1995 after serving three years for rape.

1996; Bruno defends against Tyson, rather than Lewis.

After Tyson defeats Bruno, court says Tyson's next fight must be against Lewis, who successfully files a lawsuit claiming he was improperly passed over for his shot at Bruno. In May, 1996, however, Lewis takes $4 million to step aside and allow Tyson to defend against Bruce Seldon, with a guarantee that he will be Tyson's next opponent.

Instead of fighting Lewis, as was stipulated in the Bruno agreement, Tyson relinquishes his WBC title in September and works on setting up a meeting with Evander Holyfield.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

Didnt know Lewis took 4 mil to step aside. Lewis wouldn't
have been ready for Tyson till about 96 to98 imo, interesting
different peaks and primes. I just think its very difficult to
hurt a focused Tyson, especially preprison. Dont think
Holy in 91 had the power to keep Tyson off of him. A juiced
Holy had to headbutt and hit Tyson all night before the tko
victory, which is a brilliant fight from Holy. I remember
Back in the day I ****ed up doing chores so couldnt get
the fight, but was stunned when I saw the paper in the
Morning. Anyway Holy is one of my faves, and never
feared Tyson, or anyyone for that matter, so I respect
peoples opinion concerning Holy pulling an upset in 91,
86 to 88a Mike is too much for almost anyone though.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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Originally Posted by hookfromhell View Post
Didnt know Lewis took 4 mil to step aside. Lewis wouldn't have been ready for Tyson till about 96 to98 imo, interesting
different peaks and primes. I just think its very difficult to
hurt a focused Tyson, especially preprison. Dont think
Holy in 91 had the power to keep Tyson off of him. A juiced
Holy had to headbutt and hit Tyson all night before the tko
victory, which is a brilliant fight from Holy. I remember
Back in the day I ****ed up doing chores so couldnt get
the fight, but was stunned when I saw the paper in the
Morning. Anyway Holy is one of my faves, and never
feared Tyson, or anyyone for that matter, so I respect
peoples opinion concerning Holy pulling an upset in 91,
86 to 88a Mike is too much for almost anyone though.
Tyson, also wouldn't have been ready for Lewis until 1996. Tyson, however, ducked Lewis during 1996, and instead fought Seldon, then Holyfield.

Tyson was also at fault for the butt that cut him during the first Holyfield fight.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
My recollection is Holy was 218. But it isn't a matter of sheer numbers. It is the quality and type of muscle. Holy was freakishly large and muscular and ripped all combined against Tyson. He looked like he was about to pop or burst out of himself he was so big. Like someone else said, he looked bigger than Tyson in every way, even though their weights were the same. And I just can't get it out of my head that "Evan Fields" was a BALCO client. Plus I know Evander was weight training with guys like Lee Haney, and everyone knows that 95% of those Mr. Olympia humongous guys juice in some way or the other, and I imagine such types would likely have suggested doing so to Evander, a man who certainly had enough $ to pay for it. Remember, Evander was an Olympian at 178, world champ at 190, fought Bowe the first time at 205. Still looked like an absolute rock at 218. Is it possible for guys to go up that much and still look pretty good? Sure. But to go up that much and still be THAT ripped and muscular looking, with massive shoulders and deltoids? Not so sure.

He was 215 in first Tyson fight, 218 in rematch.
I thought he looked pretty awesome back in 1989 and '90 too.

Anyway, the chances that Tyson went straight on some sort of juice after getting out of jail in 1995 are pretty strong too. (Did you see him against McNeeley ??).
Holyfield seems to get singled out for this steroid thing, but it's likely just about every elite heavyweight of his era was using too, so it baffles me why people bring it up so often.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: Tyson Holyfield

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But he was 205 for Bowe.
Yeah, the lightest he'd been since 1988 against Tillis (first fight at HW).
....and he was 210 for Holmes, Cooper, Thomas.
He was 212 for Alex Stewart in 1989.
He was 208 for Douglas and Foreman.
He was 217 for Bowe rematch.

Likewise, Tyson was 215 - 221 in his prime.


The question was about 1990, when he weighed 210 for McDonagh, a fight that occurred the month he would have fought Tyson ... if Tyson had got past Douglas.
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