Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

It's not the same because the roided athlete's time would be faster.

In fighting, you don't get timed.

In fighting, the wins wouldn't necessarily be any more emphatic for the roided fighter because he'd be facing another guy who'd have better resilience, relentlessness and stamina due to the roids.

The roided race would be of a higher quality all-round, because the athletes are better. Everyone would look more impressive, and the winner proportionately more so.

The same applies to fighting.

If a fighter is heavily roided, they have access to reservoirs of ability that they shouldn't. A fighter can be praised for being relentlessly aggressive, but in reality - without the drugs - his cardio is average and he can't fight the same way. Can't put his opponent under the same kind of sustained pressure. Can't land that vicious fight-stopping combination in the 3rd or 4th round, because he doesn't have the energy to throw it or the power to KO someone with it.

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

My final word on the subject is that there is a clear, clear difference between a 16.9:1 testosterone Sonnen fighting a 1:1 opponent, and two roided fighters competing after both doing whatever drugs they want in the build-up. A clear difference. JMHO.

Yes, there is. I'm not disputing that.

But there is also a clear difference between a roided Sonnen and a non-roided Sonnen. Just because his opponent may be roiding as well, that doesn't suddenly negate the benefits of Sonnen's roids. Win or lose, with the drugs Sonnen will still look like a much better fighter. Because he IS a much better fighter with the drugs.

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

The roided race would be of a higher quality all-round, because the athletes are better. Everyone would look more impressive, and the winner proportionately more so.

The same applies to fighting.

If a fighter is heavily roided, they have access to reservoirs of ability that they shouldn't. A fighter can be praised for being relentlessly aggressive, but in reality - without the drugs - his cardio is average and he can't fight the same way. Can't put his opponent under the same kind of sustained pressure. Can't land that vicious fight-stopping combination in the 3rd or 4th round, because he doesn't have the energy to throw it or the power to KO someone with it.



Yes, there is. I'm not disputing that.

But there is also a clear difference between a roided Sonnen and a non-roided Sonnen. Just because his opponent may be roiding as well, that doesn't suddenly negate the benefits of Sonnen's roids. Win or lose, with the drugs Sonnen will still look like a much better fighter. Because he IS a much better fighter with the drugs.

I still disagree.

If Anderson Silva had a 16.9:1 testosterone ratio in the first fight with Sonnen, he'd have smashed Chael up, because when the playing field is level he's just better.

When there was a big imbalance between the two, Sonnen was dominant for 4 and a half rounds, before skills won out.

When there was not anywhere near as big an imbalance between the two, Sonnen could only be dominant for a quarter of that time, and then he got stomped.

If both guys are clean(ish) or if both guys are roided, the outcome would be the same. It's only if there's an imbalance that it gives a false impression, and this is what Sonnen and Overeem have been doing that wasn't the same in Pride when they were all free to come in however they pleased.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

I still disagree.

If Anderson Silva had a 16.9:1 testosterone ratio in the first fight with Sonnen, he'd have smashed Chael up, because when the playing field is level he's just better.

When there was a big imbalance between the two, Sonnen was dominant for 4 and a half rounds, before skills won out.

When there was not anywhere near as big an imbalance between the two, Sonnen could only be dominant for a quarter of that time, and then he got stomped.

If both guys are clean(ish) or if both guys are roided, the outcome would be the same. It's only if there's an imbalance that it gives a false impression, and this is what Sonnen and Overeem have been doing that wasn't the same in Pride when they were all free to come in however they pleased.

What you're saying is that, as long as both guys in a fight are roided, that's the same as neither of them being roided because they'll cancel each other out.

That's not correct.

Look at it another way.

Take two regular guys who aren't fighters, who work desk jobs and who are completely out of shape.

Throw them in the cage together.

What happens? They'll both completely gas out in 20 seconds and look like utter shit. The winner looks like shit and so does the loser.

Now, take them away and train them hard in a gym for a year. Don't teach them how to fight. Just work on improving their cardio, their strength and their agility.

After a year, get them to rematch.

What happens?

You don't get exactly the same fight. You get a better quality fight. Because it's being contested by two guys who are physically far superior to what they were the first time around. They are still terrible fighters, but they will throw more punches, be stronger, faster and more active, have far better cardio, and put on a much-improved show. They will both look better than they were without the training.

So it is with steroids. If both guys are on them, then both guys will look and perform better than they would in their natural condition, without the drugs. Simple as that. That's why PRIDE encouraged their use.

[Ne5ville14]

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

What you're saying is that, as long as both guys in a fight are roided, that's the same as neither of them being roided because they'll cancel each other out.

That's not correct.

Look at it another way.

Take two regular guys who aren't fighters, who work desk jobs and who are completely out of shape.

Throw them in the cage together.

What happens? They'll both completely gas out in 20 seconds and look like utter shit. The winner looks like shit and so does the loser.

Now, take them away and train them hard in a gym for a year. Don't teach them how to fight. Just work on improving their cardio, their strength and their agility.

After a year, get them to rematch.

What happens?

You don't get exactly the same fight. You get a better quality fight. Because it's being contested by two guys who are physically far superior to what they were the first time around. They are still terrible fighters, but they will throw more punches, be stronger, faster and more active, have far better cardio, and put on a much-improved show. They will both look better than they were without the training.

So it is with steroids. If both guys are on them, then both guys will look and perform better than they would in their natural condition, without the drugs. Simple as that. That's why PRIDE encouraged their use.

That's a poor analogy, it's not the same thing at all so won't bother dealing with that directly.

I'll stick to my far more pertinent example:

A juiced Sonnen dominated a clean Silva (til he got sloppy)

A clean(ish) Sonnen couldn't match that and got beat down after a while

The imbalance of juice vs clean = imbalanced fight

The balance of cleaner vs clean = true reflection in a balanced fight

And by the same token if AS was juiced for the 1st fight, he'd have overpowered Sonnen earlier and easier much like he did in the 2nd.

You seem to deny that a roided opponent would be more difficult than a clean opponent. I disagree with you, and even after reading everything you have said are no closer to changing my mind.

Sonnen and Overeem juicing in a clean environment is totally different to everyone roiding in a roided-up environment. It just is.

[rekcutnevets]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think Haggis has a point here. I believe what he is trying to say that we are looking back at their past performances and we are taking the fighter we saw then into theoretical head to head competition. If Shogun was roiding back then, and was forced to be cleared by an athletic commission, he would not be as fast, explosive, etc... It has nothing to do with whether or not his opponent was doping, and everything to do with a juiced up version of the person we are analyzing. We are taking a roided version of a fighter and putting them in with a clean fighter. Even if it just imaginary. If Mark Coleman was roided up, maybe that is why his shot was so explosive. Without the juice, certain people from today may have been able to stuff what was once indefensible.

I'm not arguing Coleman wasn't a good wrestler, he was an Olympian. I'm just saying that he would not have been the heavyweight that he was without Steroids. Maybe he would have been great at 205 instead.

I'm not taking the stance Shogun wasn't great at 205. I don't even know that he was doping. This is all hypothetical.

[Stoo]

Lance Armstrong never failed a drugs test...so I guess giving guys the time and date of a test means they MUST be clean right...

You guys are fucking hilarious

[Stoo]

So Anderson comes from the PED free for all in Japan and beats BUSTED juicers in Sonnen, Nate and Vitor because he is 100 % clean... Next you'll be telling me GSP isnt on something Y'all are so naive it's actually funny

[achillesthegreat]

Shogun in shape is top 10 ATG and a machine. Shogun out of shape is a tough contender who can lose to Forrest, go life and death with Coleman and make Vera look much better than he is.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by Stoo

So Anderson comes from the PED free for all in Japan and beats BUSTED juicers in Sonnen, Nate and Vitor because he is 100 % clean... Next you'll be telling me GSP isnt on something Y'all are so naive it's actually funny

I'm not going to tell you anyone is clean. There are very few people in the world that even have the 4:1/6:1 test levels all the US athletic commissions are saying is ok to come in at. The average person has 1:1 levels. I would be curious to see how many athletes getting tested by the commissions come in at the maximum allowable level.

Kit is saying he doesn't see the point the Hag is making. I'm acknowledging the point the Hag is trying to make. Just because it impossible to prove, or measure, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by Stoo

So Anderson comes from the PED free for all in Japan and beats BUSTED juicers in Sonnen, Nate and Vitor because he is 100 % clean... Next you'll be telling me GSP isnt on something Y'all are so naive it's actually funny

Those needles in his home were for the prevention of cauliflower ears, Stoo!!!

[Will Cooling]

To me when it comes to guys Wanderlei its perfectly legitimate to raise the question of Japan's laxer attitude to PEDs. He was clearly jacked to the fucking gills during his Pride run and his appearance noticeably shifted when he came stateside. But Shogun? I mean has his body really changed all that much? He's got a little softer but that's because he's constantly coming back from knee injuries and so doesn't train properly. Not saying he was or wasn't using...but there isn't the evidence that he was taking advantage of the lack of a drugs testing policy to abuse them in a way no UFC fighter could replicate.

To me I think as is often the case Haggis is over thinking things. Firstly there's a lot more differences between Pride and UFC than the attitude to PEDs that make direct comparisons difficult. Secondly I don't think its relevant. Shogun was awesome and then he started suffering from injuries (a process that began in Pride remember) to the point where he stopped being awesome. He's still got power but when he next fights somebody someone with a better gastank than Henderson and just simply better than Vera he may be in serious trouble.

Btw to throw out a thought is Henderson a little overrated after the 2011 he had? I mean he had great performances in excellent fights but most people would consider Fedor shot and Shogun past his prime. To further the point - most would consider Wanderlei past his best when they fought as well. And they're his best three wins since beating a young Big Nog.

[MattMattMatt]

I agree with Haggis. A leveling playing field doesn't have much to do with how impressive someone looks. Put Mike Tyson and Ali in the same ring at their best and try and tell me it looks the same as Audley Harrison and Danny Williams. They might be both fairly evenly matched events but it doesn't take a genius to tell that both fighters in one match are better. We could see from those two fights alone who the best and worst were, the same applies for two sets of fighters operating under different PED rules, we can see that those juicing look more impressive, but in this case we know why so it can be taken into account when comparing across the two organizations.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

That's a poor analogy, it's not the same thing at all so won't bother dealing with that directly.

The analogy works perfectly. It is you who doesn't understand. You are insisting that the roids make no difference to the fighter's abilities, so long as both guys are on them. This is plain wrong.

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

The imbalance of juice vs clean = imbalanced fight

The balance of cleaner vs clean = true reflection in a balanced fight

But we're not talking about balanced fights, are we?

We're talking about comparing guys who are clean, to guys who are roided out of their skulls.

If you have a free hand to take steroids, and you fight against other steroid monsters, you still look much more impressive than you would if you both fight clean.

If you're roided and you're also just a better fighter than your roided opponent is, then you beat him and look incredible. You look much more devastating than you would if you were off the juice. And the reality is that you ARE a more dangerous fighter when you're on gear. That's why athletes take steroids in the first place. I can't understand why you would try to deny that.

[werety]

ROFL what kind of logic is this? Saying fighters don't look better on steroids because their opponents will be on steroids too? You understand that fighters can be evenly matched and look good as opposed to being evenly matched and looking bad.