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Old 08-05-2012, 09:35 PM   #31
Haggis McJackass
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by werety View Post
ROFL what kind of logic is this? Saying fighters don't look better on steroids because their opponents will be on steroids too? You understand that fighters can be evenly matched and look good as opposed to being evenly matched and looking bad.
Apparently he doesn't.

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Old 08-05-2012, 09:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Apparently he doesn't.

No I don't think he's too dumb to realize something that simple. He probably just started an argument with that point and is now sticking to it because he doesn't want to admit he was wrong.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
If you have a free hand to take steroids, and you fight against other steroid monsters, you still look much more impressive than you would if you both fight clean.
Yawn. This is boring now. I still disagree. If your opponent is roided, he is also tougher, more resilient, more relentless, so you will find him as tough as the clean fighter finds the clean opponent.


I really don't understand how you can think that Sonnen and Reem juicing against clean fighters is the same as roided fighters fighting each other. It's just plain wrong.

But I'm tired of going back and forth on it. We disagree. Not the end of the world.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by werety View Post
ROFL what kind of logic is this? Saying fighters don't look better on steroids because their opponents will be on steroids too? You understand that fighters can be evenly matched and look good as opposed to being evenly matched and looking bad.
Then why doesn't everyone think that the Pride fighters that people suspected of roiding were much, much, much better than clean UFC fighters of today? Wanderlei, Shogun, Coleman, Crocop etc etc were some of the top men in Pride, did they really look so much better than the equivalent of today, like Machida, Cruz, Velasquez and Condit etc? I don't think so. The non-roiders of today can be every bit as brutal and emphatic without roids, because they're facing other clean fighters, so there is no imbalance.

I don't think you grasped my point about the importance of balance vs imbalance in a fight.

But as I said in my previous post, I have run out of interest in this subject really.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:56 PM   #35
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
Injuries have blighted Shogun's career and made him age faster than he should have. He has lost some silly fights in the UFC, and lost some fights he should've won.

But the guy is still an ATG, if you consider his career overall.

I personally rate him a top 10 ATG.

Consider the following facts:


- Pride 2005 GP champion (the #1 fighter of a tournament that included Wanderlei, Rampage, Hendo, Overeem, Belfort, Vovchanchyn, L'il Nog, Randleman, Arona and Sakuraba)

- One of the elite group to be a Pride champion (GP) and a UFC champion

- He was the man to solve the Machida puzzle and end the 'Machida era', taking the Dragon's zero by KO after outfighting him over 5 rounds in the eyes of many

- His win resume is superb by any standards:

Rampage
L'il Nog
Overeem (twice)
Arona
Randleman
Liddell
Machida



I'm basically making this thread because someone said that Rua was a good fighter but not a great one, and would be considered a top 10 lhw ever only. For me, that is complete bullshit.

If you take his win resume, achievements, and his ability in his prime into accout, this guy was one of the best fighters ever in this sport. I consider him the #1 lightheavyweight ever as things stand, and a top 10 ATG.

His ability is underrated because he has came to the cage out of shape and horribly underperformed at times, but if you watch a fully fit Shogun, he is an elite fighter. The way he fought in the Pride GP, using great striking but also great grappling against Nogueira, was a special fighter for sure.

I actually place Rua 10th, ahead of guys like Chuck Liddell, Rampage, Crocop and Couture.


for what it's worth, my current top 10 in order is:

1.Fedor Emelianenko
2.Anderson Silva
3.Georges St Pierre
4.Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
5.Dan Henderson
6.BJ Penn
7.Matt Hughes
8.Kazushi Sakuraba
9.Wanderlei Silva
10.Shogun Rua

Honourable mentions: Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Mirko Crocop, Rampage Jackson


I expect Jon Jones (already) to join this list very soon.
Yes, I agree.

The guy is one of the best & greatest ever... he`s as great as any LHW thats ever done it at the moment.

I like the top 10, hard to argue with, I`d personally have Sakuraba higher, definitely ahead of Matt Hughes.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:03 PM   #36
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Shogun use to be a great fighter before all the injuries and lay offs. Now His cardio is non existent , his striking is sloppy and he is easily hit as well. I honestly feel machida would do him in if a Rubbermatch occurs. Vera wouldn't have lasted a round with Rua from the pride days, sadly that shogun is long gone and has been for some time. In my opinion the only thing keeping him going is his toughness and above average chin. Maybe he needs to jump on the TRT bandwagon as well.......
Yes, he does look tired very easily these days, his will keeps him going but he looks worn out... the Rua from PRIDE would have finished Vera (& Henderson IMPO) quicker.... a lot of it has to do with him not being able to kick a grounded opponent, thats his favourite finisher, Vera would have been done in 2 rounds if kicks were legal.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:37 PM   #37
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Yawn. This is boring now. I still disagree. If your opponent is roided, he is also tougher, more resilient, more relentless, so you will find him as tough as the clean fighter finds the clean opponent.
So that's your stance, even after several people have corrected you and nobody has sided with you. Roids make zero difference to a fighter's ability or how good a fighter he looks, so long as his opponent is on them as well.

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
I really don't understand how you can think that Sonnen and Reem juicing against clean fighters is the same as roided fighters fighting each other.
I never said that. You got that idea in your head yourself. After all this time, you still don't even understand the argument.

Here's what it boils down to.

Steroids make a pro fighter better. Win or lose, a heavily roided fighter will be tougher to beat and look more impressive than the same guy without roids.

I (and everyone else in this thread) accept this as simple truth.

You, for some reason, deny it.

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Old 08-06-2012, 08:39 PM   #38
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
Then why doesn't everyone think that the Pride fighters that people suspected of roiding were much, much, much better than clean UFC fighters of today?


You gotta be kidding me. Have you read these boards?

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Old 08-06-2012, 08:59 PM   #39
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
Then why doesn't everyone think that the Pride fighters that people suspected of roiding were much, much, much better than clean UFC fighters of today? Wanderlei, Shogun, Coleman, Crocop etc etc were some of the top men in Pride, did they really look so much better than the equivalent of today, like Machida, Cruz, Velasquez and Condit etc? I don't think so. The non-roiders of today can be every bit as brutal and emphatic without roids, because they're facing other clean fighters, so there is no imbalance.

I don't think you grasped my point about the importance of balance vs imbalance in a fight.

But as I said in my previous post, I have run out of interest in this subject really.
I don't know maybe the UFC fighters are better? A better question to ask yourself is how different did the Pride fighters look when they were in the UFC and off roids and fighting against other fighters who were off roids. They still look worse to me.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:27 AM   #40
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
So that's your stance, even after several people have corrected you and nobody has sided with you. Roids make zero difference to a fighter's ability or how good a fighter he looks, so long as his opponent is on them as well.
I think you're getting a bit carried away by this one asshole who has strongly backed you. Proves nothing.

A roided fighter vs a roided fighter is fair.

A clean fighter vs a clean fighter is fair.

A heavily juiced fighter vs a clean fighter is not.

Not difficult to understand at all really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
I never said that. You got that idea in your head yourself. After all this time, you still don't even understand the argument.

Here's what it boils down to.

Steroids make a pro fighter better. Win or lose, a heavily roided fighter will be tougher to beat and look more impressive than the same guy without roids.

I (and everyone else in this thread) accept this as simple truth.

You, for some reason, deny it.

When there is an imbalance in a fight, one guy looks amazing. When there is balance in a fight, there is a true reflection of how the guys match up.

Again, this is just very simple logic.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:35 AM   #41
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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You gotta be kidding me. Have you read these boards?

We both know you're talking nonsense now.

If what you're saying is even partly true, then the roided era of Pride would look like the Brazil soccer team of 1970 as compared to the current UFC era being the current England team (ie, shit).

If all the roided guys looked so much better than their clean successors, the disparity between Pride and the UFC would be staggering.

We both know that this is not the case. Some people may have a preference for Pride due to its more brutal rules, but there is no way that people now watch Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Junior dos Santos, Jose Aldo, Lyoto Machida and all, and feel as if they are watching junior league baseball as compared to the vastly superior dynamic quality of the Majors like Wanderlei Silva, Fedor, Shogun, Hendo and Nogueira. There is no big disparity, even to people who prefer Pride. One had generally accepted great fighters, the other does too, and one group was clearly not way way way ahead of the other in terms of explosive dominance and brilliance.

We both know you are wrong and talking bullshit here. Be fair.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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I don't know maybe the UFC fighters are better? A better question to ask yourself is how different did the Pride fighters look when they were in the UFC and off roids and fighting against other fighters who were off roids. They still look worse to me.
This is a very, very silly point indeed. Makes me think I'm dealing with a bit of a dim fellow if I'm being honest.

The majority of the guys in Pride spent their physical primes in that organization going to war after brutal war after brutal war, and then they came to the UFC with their physical primes behind them already, with brutal wars and bad losses behind them, and had to then adapt to a game with new rules, where many of their trusted old weapons were removed.

To attribute this solely to being off roids is complete and utter bullshit. Age and wear n tear had far more to do with it.

In the years following Pride, the guys who had been the major players in the UFC would be Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Tim Sylvia, Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Jens Pulver, etc. Were all the losses they started to suffer either to lesser fighters or in embarrassing fashion, were they all down to fighters coming off roids as well, or was it really just that generation getting older and more worn, and fighting younger, fresher guys?

You guys' know-it-all attitudes really pisses me off, as you talk nonsense yet are so far up on that high horse I can hardly see you at all.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:50 AM   #43
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
I really don't understand how you can think that Sonnen and Reem juicing against clean fighters is the same as roided fighters fighting each other. It's just plain wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
I never said that. You got that idea in your head yourself. After all this time, you still don't even understand the argument.
Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
You know how many people put an asterix on Sonnen's performance in Anderson 1 because he failed a drugs test afterwards?

The PRIDE guys have the same asterix in their PRIDE fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
But if the likes of Overeem and Sonnen get marked down for their test results, then the PRIDE guys have to be viewed under the same lens.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:52 AM   #44
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

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Originally Posted by MattMattMatt View Post
I agree with Haggis. A leveling playing field doesn't have much to do with how impressive someone looks. Put Mike Tyson and Ali in the same ring at their best and try and tell me it looks the same as Audley Harrison and Danny Williams. They might be both fairly evenly matched events but it doesn't take a genius to tell that both fighters in one match are better. We could see from those two fights alone who the best and worst were, the same applies for two sets of fighters operating under different PED rules, we can see that those juicing look more impressive, but in this case we know why so it can be taken into account when comparing across the two organizations.
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Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
As much as I hate to admit it, I think Haggis has a point here. I believe what he is trying to say that we are looking back at their past performances and we are taking the fighter we saw then into theoretical head to head competition. If Shogun was roiding back then, and was forced to be cleared by an athletic commission, he would not be as fast, explosive, etc... It has nothing to do with whether or not his opponent was doping, and everything to do with a juiced up version of the person we are analyzing. We are taking a roided version of a fighter and putting them in with a clean fighter. Even if it just imaginary. If Mark Coleman was roided up, maybe that is why his shot was so explosive. Without the juice, certain people from today may have been able to stuff what was once indefensible.

I'm not arguing Coleman wasn't a good wrestler, he was an Olympian. I'm just saying that he would not have been the heavyweight that he was without Steroids. Maybe he would have been great at 205 instead.

I'm not taking the stance Shogun wasn't great at 205. I don't even know that he was doping. This is all hypothetical.
Then what say you to the post below?

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
I still disagree.

If Anderson Silva had a 16.9:1 testosterone ratio in the first fight with Sonnen, he'd have smashed Chael up, because when the playing field is level he's just better.

When there was a big imbalance between the two, Sonnen was dominant for 4 and a half rounds, before skills won out.

When there was not anywhere near as big an imbalance between the two, Sonnen could only be dominant for a quarter of that time, and then he got stomped.

If both guys are clean(ish) or if both guys are roided, the outcome would be the same. It's only if there's an imbalance that it gives a false impression, and this is what Sonnen and Overeem have been doing that wasn't the same in Pride when they were all free to come in however they pleased.
I am no less convinced by this logic than when this thread began, despite reading and considering what everyone has said.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:09 AM   #45
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Default Re: Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

Its a bit annoying that a thread was made about Shogun & 2 guys have practically ruined the thread by arguing for the last 2 pages over nonsense like steroids.... especially when neither will ever agree with the other thru 200 pages.

JMO
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