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Old 08-07-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
Squire
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Its not a valid point because:

A. It was not even an actual fight.

B. It is by no means certain that the fighters record was actualy 3-3 at the time.
Was his big showdown with unbeaten Steve Ketchell (0-0) an actual fight?
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

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Champions these days don't ever fight against guys with records of 3-3, or in their first pro fight. I think that's the point of the thread and it's a perfectly valid one. Back in the day the top fighters fought each other regularly, and more often than they do now, but they also fought a lot of cans. Fights that wouldn't even be sanctioned today

Imagine Lewis, Mayweather, De La Hoya, Pacquaio etc fought a 3-3 guy while they were at the top? They'd never live it down, and the classic would slaughter them for it

According to Boxrec, Louis also fought a guy in his first pro fight, five fights after the first Schmelling fight. It says he was a sub for somebody else, but again, that couldn't happen today
You shouldn't trust BoxRec for everything, and if you do, atleast do enough research about the boxer you're talking about by opening up his bio page.

Here is what it says about Steve Ketchel,

"Career -- 1925 to 1932
About 40 pro bouts"

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Obviously he was no more than a journeyman at best and a late substitute, but considering that Louis fought the very capable Bob Pastor only 2 weeks later, you could hardly ask him to take on a top contender on a couple of days notice.

Alvaro Rojas, as Senor Pepe already put it, was also a legitimate professional who had beaten a former world champion, challenged for the world title and did well. Duran did make him look like a complete bum though.

Whitaker and Chavez fought terrible stiffs (who actually had barely any professional fights) in between the big fights yet they got away with it.

It's just that with the likes of Mayweather and Pacquiao fighting barely once a year, they obviously don't get to fight anybody but the very best. Otherwise it would be an even bigger farce than it is today.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

Ali, vs Leon Spinks (who had seven fights), ....and fkin' lost.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

Steve Ketchel after 2 rounds with Joe Louis:

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Old 08-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
You shouldn't trust BoxRec for everything, and if you do, atleast do enough research about the boxer you're talking about by opening up his bio page.

Here is what it says about Steve Ketchel,

"Career -- 1925 to 1932
About 40 pro bouts"

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Obviously he was no more than a journeyman at best and a late substitute, but considering that Louis fought the very capable Bob Pastor only 2 weeks later, you could hardly ask him to take on a top contender on a couple of days notice.

Alvaro Rojas, as Senor Pepe already put it, was also a legitimate professional who had beaten a former world champion, challenged for the world title and did well. Duran did make him look like a complete bum though.

Whitaker and Chavez fought terrible stiffs (who actually had barely any professional fights) in between the big fights yet they got away with it.

It's just that with the likes of Mayweather and Pacquiao fighting barely once a year, they obviously don't get to fight anybody but the very best. Otherwise it would be an even bigger farce than it is today.
Fair enough. I can't really argue with that.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

I don't believe Louis's fights with Ketchel and Davis were even listed on his record in the beginning. He had far more serious exhibition matches against seasoned professionals who were actually rated highly which are not listed on BoxRec.

One such example:

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The KO of Roscoe Toles in the 6th round is another one.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

I've always been under the impression that, unlike with the lighter weights, any heavyweight champion that fights in a sanctioned bout is putting his title on the line as there are no weight limitations.

A welter can fight at 154 pounds and thus not risk his 147-pound championship. But a heavyweight is always fighting in his weight class, thus the belt is supposed to be on the line.

Which brings an interesting question, as it probably has, indeed happened at some point: when was the last time a heavyweight champion fought a non-title fight that was not an exhibition?
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

I looked this up some time back when I saw it appear in boxrec. The newspaper writeup on this bout stated very clearly that it was an exhibition bout and nothing more. It was not a sanctioned bout and if Davis by chance scored a KO, he would have about as much claim as if a sparring partner KO'd Louis in the gym.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Alfredo Evangilista didn't neccessarily set the world on fire with a 14-1-1 record.

I liked Alfredo, but the kid never had gone past 8-Rounds, and had only been a
professional for 18 1/2 months.

The WBC was ready to pull the 'trigger' on Muhammad Ali's Championship, but
the sanctioning fee's were paid 'double' to get the bout approved.
Maybe the fact that Ali had defended his title a few months earlier against Ken Norton prompted the WBC and WBA to cut Ali some slack? Something you could never be accused of.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: How do champions get away with this type of title challanger?

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Maybe the fact that Ali had defended his title a few months earlier against Ken Norton prompted the WBC and WBA to cut Ali some slack? Something you could never be accused of.

The World Boxing Organizations, cutting Muhammad Ali some 'slack'.

This was 'The World Heavyweight Championship of the World'

It's not supposed to be a Game with the World Champion facing a
'minor league prospect'.

It was at 'one time', the most prestigious title in the world.

What's next, Muhammad Ali fighting a Japanese Wrestler. Oh wait a second, wasn't that done already.
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