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Old 08-11-2012, 02:54 AM   #31
Robbi
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

I read a superb article in the Sep, 1980, issue of the Ring about Duran's lightweight greatness, and head to head ability against past lightweights. The people giving their opinion have been around since the 40's at least, some had seen Benny Leonard during the 20's. Some were trainers like Cus Dmato and Ray Arcel, Teddy Brenner and many others. They talked about Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Tony Canzoneri, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, etc. Basically they all agreed that Duran was really good but never in the class of Williams and Canzoneri, etc. They really asked the question, who did Duran beat? One even laughed at Lou Bizzaro taking Duran into the late rounds.

Jack Fiske said "When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"

"None of the old timers participating in the poll gave De Jesus or Buchanan a call on their all-time lists. Think about it".


Teddy Brenner "Duran, to me, was an exciting, colourful, hard punching, charismatic fighter, but I think he suffered a geniune lack of competition. While he held the title, the fighters in the lightweight division were at the lowest calibre in the divisions history".
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:06 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams and De La Hoya should be ratted over him at lightweight. They each would beat him as well. Mayweather, Mosley, Armstrong and Ross would also beat Duran @135.
Overrated? Yes a big Yes.
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:10 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams and De La Hoya should be ratted over him at lightweight. They each would beat him as well. Mayweather, Mosley, Armstrong and Ross would also beat Duran @135.
Overrated? Yes a big Yes.

De La Hoya wouldn't beat Duran. And to suggest he has greater credentials as a lightweight is just lunacy.
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Kobayashi was good win for Duran during his pre title days. He was a champion at 130 and had just recently lost his belt.

I dont think Whitaker`s resume at Lightweight is better than Duran`s. Ike Williams probably. That was a vicious era.
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Old 08-11-2012, 05:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Sheeeeeeeiiiiit did someone just say hoya was a greater lightweight then duran?
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Sheeeeeeeiiiiit did someone just say hoya was a greater lightweight then duran?
Probably, a joke.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:50 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

You can argue records (resume to you lot) all day but of all the fighters that there is quality footage of, the 2 best lightweights are clearly Duran & Whitaker... of the 2 I go with Duran slightly so to ME that means Roberto Duran is the best 135 lber ever. Pernell runs him close tho, 2 outstanding ATG fighters.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:05 AM   #38
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams and De La Hoya should be ratted over him at lightweight. They each would beat him as well. Mayweather, Mosley, Armstrong and Ross would also beat Duran @135.
Overrated? Yes a big Yes.
Your out of your ****ing mind.... I won`t comment on Gans or Leonard due to lack of quality footage but personally I think Duran beats all of those guys you mentioned, Whitaker & Armstrong having the best shot to beat him.

Mayweather ? Mosely ? Delahoya ? GTFO... a prime Duran would rape every one of those guys.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:08 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

If Duran had retired from boxing after he beat De Jesus for the 2nd time, perhaps it wouldn't be so certain that he was the greatest Lightweight of all time, but when you see what Duran did against Leonard at Welterweight and Hagler at Middleweight, I just don't see how these other 135 pound greats could have hoped to beat a prime Duran.

The only way they win against him, is if Duran doesn't train properly for the bout.
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:10 AM   #40
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

An over-looked Lightweight performance

Saturday - December 2, 1975

Roberto Clemente Stadium - San Juan, Puerto Rico

CBS-TV Sports Spectacular

WBA Lightweight Championship

WBA ** Roberto Duran 53-1-0 (46 KO's)
vs.
#1 WBA - Leonico Ortiz 43-5-1 (26 KO's)

Leonico Ortiz, a steady and smart 'southpaw', was an excellent Lightweight.
The 26 year-old was the Mexican Lightweight Champion, at a time when there
were about '10' very good 135 lb. fighters in Mexico.

He had a good sharp right jab, and a good 'whipping' left hook underneath.

Leonico had defeated a 'variety' of Top 10 contenders leading up to this bout
with Roberto Duran.
* Bernardo Prada
* Monroe Brooks
* Jose Peterson
* Jesus Padilla
* Jesus 'Chucho' Alonso
* Fred Roland Pastor
* Octavio Amparon

In the 2 1/2 years leading up this fight, Leonico had gone 15-1-0 (8 KO's), with
his only loss, a 'close' 10-Round Decision to 'talented' Columbian - Emiliano Villa.

Note: CBS-Sports 'incorrectly' reported Leonico Ortiz as having a record of 59-2-0 (26 KO's).

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 08-11-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
I read a superb article in the Sep, 1980, issue of the Ring about Duran's lightweight greatness, and head to head ability against past lightweights. The people giving their opinion have been around since the 40's at least, some had seen Benny Leonard during the 20's. Some were trainers like Cus Dmato and Ray Arcel, Teddy Brenner and many others. They talked about Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Tony Canzoneri, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, etc. Basically they all agreed that Duran was really good but never in the class of Williams and Canzoneri, etc. They really asked the question, who did Duran beat? One even laughed at Lou Bizzaro taking Duran into the late rounds.

Jack Fiske said "When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"

"None of the old timers participating in the poll gave De Jesus or Buchanan a call on their all-time lists. Think about it".


Teddy Brenner "Duran, to me, was an exciting, colourful, hard punching, charismatic fighter, but I think he suffered a geniune lack of competition. While he held the title, the fighters in the lightweight division were at the lowest calibre in the divisions history".
This is someone more knowledgeable on the subject than I talking about it.

"The Jack Fiske article/poll that he references in Chapter 12 as it pertains to Duran. That whole piece really mystified me as I have the original article that Fiske wrote from Ring Magazine and there are so many inconsistancies between what WAS written and what Silver relates I was down right dumbfounded.And his comment of the "faux experts" going over board in their overrating of Duran as a Lightweight......7 mos earlier in the Ring (from when Fiske's article was written), there was a Blue Ribbon panel of experts who voted on who was the greatest fighter in the history of Boxing. This was Late 1979 (Feb 1980 issue of the Ring) and the top 20 came out as such:
1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2-Joe Louis
3-Henry Armstrong
4-Muhammad Ali
5-Benny Leonard
6-Willie Pep
7-Rocky Marciano
8-Jack Dempsey
9-Roberto Duran
10-Jack Johnson
11-Carlos Monzon
12-Joe Gans
13-Stanley Ketchal
14-Mickey Walker
15-Harry Greb
16-Sam Langford
17-Sandy Saddler
18-Archie Moore
19-Gene Tunney
20-Tony Canzoneri
Duran finished behind ONE Lightweight, Benny Leonard.It's obvious to me that Silver had have taken exception with such a poll. And Fiske's poll taken 7 mos later I assume was done to counter this. However in the RIng, Fiske mentions only SIX respondents to his Poll In his words: "The Respondents included a manager, a matchmaker, a trainer, two writers and a radio tv announcer". This translates to D'Amato, Brenner, Arcel, Bromberg, Heinz and Dunphy.Silver states there were 17 "boxing experts" in the Poll and he doesn't even quote, Heinz, Bromberg who were quoted in the piece he references. Yet Chris Dundee, Lou Gross and Fiske himself are quoted and none of these are quoted in the Ring article. There was an odd disconnect here that STILL has me puzzled.But Back to the Best fighter poll done 7 mos earlier.Among those Pollees that ultimately had Duran the 9th greatest fighter ever (this was prior to the Leonard fight btw) and 2nd only to Benny Leonard as far as Lightweights were concerned, were the following:Freddie BrownGil ClancyCus D'Amato Don Dunphy Harry Gibbs Mike Katz Randy Gordon Billy Graham Jerry Izenberg Jim Jacobs Nat Loubet Barney Nagler Pat Putnam Art Rust Jr. Ed Schuyler Bert Sugar Herb Goldman Bob Waters.Now are THESE guys "faux experts"? Were THESE the guys Silver was criticizing even though some of them (Arcel, Dunphy, D'Amato) were quoted in Fiske's article in the RIng?"
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #42
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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This, I think, is what a lot of boxing fans forget about when evaluating records. Everyone gets caught up on the big names, the biggest wins, and forget about things like the solid contenders of an era, the tough gatekeepers, the champs that are slightly past their best but are a huge deal when a young kid coming up beats them.

30-40 years from now, people are going to be sneering when guys who were actually around for the current era of boxing try to explain why beating, say, a Zab Judah is a big win, ("He was a punk who lost to everyone! That's not a big win, and only someone with a shitty resume has to try to make a big deal out of beating him!") or why Morales almost beating Maidana was a big deal. ("Madiana was nothing but a clumsy gatekeeper and Morales lost anyway, why do old timers try to make this sound impressive?")

When you lose that context, you can't put an era into context anymore. Long story short, the 70s had a lot of solid contenders that would have made decent champs for a year or two before getting knocked off, and Duran beat every single one of them. It may not sound like a big deal today to beat a Hiroshi Kobayashi on the way up, to take out Edwin Viruet or Ray Lampkin, but beating guys on that level for 8+ years without ever slipping or coming up against a different style that neutralizes you says a lot about a fighter.

Bottom line, in Duran's lightweight and pre-lightweight days he beat a couple of really good names that everyone remembers, some good names that most people forget about despite them being world class contenders, and some guys that tend to be overlooked and forgotten about. (Like Duran taking out Ernesto Marcel at 130. How many times does that get forgotten, and how many people remember that Marcel was a hell of a fighter who beat Arguello over 15 rounds years later?)
I couldn't have put it better myself, people tend to downplay many of Duran's wins at LW as if it was some kind of absymally weak era like the current HW era minus the K-bros. Duran both as champion and contender on the way up, beat a lot of good fighters.
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:28 PM   #43
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
De La Hoya wouldn't beat Duran. And to suggest he has greater credentials as a lightweight is just lunacy.
I would have agreed with you about their rattings, intell I looked at their resumes at 135.
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:40 PM   #44
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Had De Jesus started to slide before their rubber match? I've often wondered about how much less competitive that one was compared to their previous two. Was there anything to suggest beforehand that Esteban wasn't quite what he once had been? Or was it just Duran who had improved?
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:10 PM   #45
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Well Dejesus wasn't the most dedicated.I think he had lost a notch of speed by the Duran rematch, especially his legs.

He was still a great fighter though.It was after that fight he really went downhill quickly.
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