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Old 01-01-2013, 04:53 PM   #61
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
I read a superb article in the Sep, 1980, issue of the Ring about Duran's lightweight greatness, and head to head ability against past lightweights. The people giving their opinion have been around since the 40's at least, some had seen Benny Leonard during the 20's. Some were trainers like Cus Dmato and Ray Arcel, Teddy Brenner and many others. They talked about Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Tony Canzoneri, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, etc. Basically they all agreed that Duran was really good but never in the class of Williams and Canzoneri, etc. They really asked the question, who did Duran beat? One even laughed at Lou Bizzaro taking Duran into the late rounds.

Jack Fiske said "When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"

"None of the old timers participating in the poll gave De Jesus or Buchanan a call on their all-time lists. Think about it".


Teddy Brenner "Duran, to me, was an exciting, colourful, hard punching, charismatic fighter, but I think he suffered a geniune lack of competition. While he held the title, the fighters in the lightweight division were at the lowest calibre in the divisions history".
Fascinating. Didn't you post another article circa 1977-78 in which Carlos Zarate was considered the best fighter 'P4P' at the time?
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:05 PM   #62
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Next to Benny Leonard their is no other fighter to reign as champion at lightweight for such a long period. He may not have defeated as many HOF calibre opponents as Leonard but he beat some very quality fighters and is clearly top 3 lightweight with only Ike Williams having a case behind Leonard.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:16 PM   #63
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Ive always had Benny Leonard above Duran at 135.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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If Duran had retired from boxing after he beat De Jesus for the 2nd time, perhaps it wouldn't be so certain that he was the greatest Lightweight of all time, but when you see what Duran did against Leonard at Welterweight and Hagler at Middleweight, I just don't see how these other 135 pound greats could have hoped to beat a prime Duran.
I think this is the perception of a lot of people, that Duran's achievements above 135 and past his prime ensure him the #1 spot at 135.

I think this raises the question, how much should a fighter's achievements above a certain weight affect his ranking at the lower weight? Is it possible that the fighter improved in any areas (i.e: strength, experience) when moving up in weight? In Duran's case, I think his chin got better as he moved up in weight - he was dropped twice by DeJesus at 135, but by the time he got to 160 he seemed unfloorable.

I also think the reverse logic may be true, that there are things that happened above 135 that could be counted against him as a LW - specifically, the "No mas" incident could be used to question his mental toughness at any time heading into that fight. I certainly would question any notion that Duran could become frustrated enough to quit only at 147, but was mentally unflappable above and below that weight.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:46 PM   #65
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
I read a superb article in the Sep, 1980, issue of the Ring about Duran's lightweight greatness, and head to head ability against past lightweights. The people giving their opinion have been around since the 40's at least, some had seen Benny Leonard during the 20's. Some were trainers like Cus Dmato and Ray Arcel, Teddy Brenner and many others. They talked about Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Tony Canzoneri, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, etc. Basically they all agreed that Duran was really good but never in the class of Williams and Canzoneri, etc. They really asked the question, who did Duran beat? One even laughed at Lou Bizzaro taking Duran into the late rounds.

Jack Fiske said "When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"

"None of the old timers participating in the poll gave De Jesus or Buchanan a call on their all-time lists. Think about it".


Teddy Brenner "Duran, to me, was an exciting, colourful, hard punching, charismatic fighter, but I think he suffered a geniune lack of competition. While he held the title, the fighters in the lightweight division were at the lowest calibre in the divisions history".
Interesting reads.

Like I said, the perception of Duran as the "undisputed" #1 all-time LW was based mainly on his subsequent success above the weight and was not a contemporary view while he was still at the weight (although he was generally considered one of the all-time best LWs before moving up).

By contrast, fighters like Robinson and Pep were already considered arguably the best ever at their respective weight classes while they were still active in those weights.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:50 PM   #66
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

What do you think about Eleta managing his extended reign at LW by having him defend against top 10 - Top Ten for christ sakes - lightweights only 50% of the time over the duration?
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:51 PM   #67
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

No shit? You're telling me that some old motheaten fogies picked dead end kids over a guy who was ultra modern at the time? I've never heard of such a thing...
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #68
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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No shit? You're telling me that some old motheaten fogies picked dead end kids over a guy who was ultra modern at the time? I've never heard of such a thing...
The 'current era' always seems to be the nadir of the sport's history.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:09 PM   #69
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
I read a superb article in the Sep, 1980, issue of the Ring about Duran's lightweight greatness, and head to head ability against past lightweights. The people giving their opinion have been around since the 40's at least, some had seen Benny Leonard during the 20's. Some were trainers like Cus Dmato and Ray Arcel, Teddy Brenner and many others. They talked about Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Tony Canzoneri, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Bob Montgomery, Henry Armstrong, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, etc. Basically they all agreed that Duran was really good but never in the class of Williams and Canzoneri, etc. They really asked the question, who did Duran beat? One even laughed at Lou Bizzaro taking Duran into the late rounds.

Jack Fiske said "When I try to place Roberto Duran in a one-to-ten listing, I can never wipe the memory of his title defense against Lou Bizzaro, Leonica Ortiz and Vilomar Fernandez. Bizzaro lasted 15 rounds, Ortiz went the full 15 round limit and Fernandez was there until the 13th. Bizzaro, without a doubt, was the most pathetic lightweight challenger in history, although a great runner. Ortiz, at the time he met Duran had a 22-5-1 record. Fernandez 19-5-1, had only knocked out five men. Ike Williams would have knocked out all three in one night.

"The best fighter Duran ever met was Esteban De Jesus, who beat him one out of three. Probably on par with De Jesus was Ken Buchanan, from whom Duran won the title on a controversial low blow in the 13th round. Duran's manager would never honor a commitment of a return bout contract with Buchanan after that"

"None of the old timers participating in the poll gave De Jesus or Buchanan a call on their all-time lists. Think about it".


Teddy Brenner "Duran, to me, was an exciting, colourful, hard punching, charismatic fighter, but I think he suffered a geniune lack of competition. While he held the title, the fighters in the lightweight division were at the lowest calibre in the divisions history".
Not disputing the qualifications of Benny Leonard or Ike Williams in any way -- their resumes speak for themselves -- but these experts talking about how long an overmatched opponent lasted (especiallly a runner) obviously didn't do their homework and see if the same was true of Leonard or Williams, because it was.

Both guys won multiple decisions over lesser fighters -- and in Williams' case also lost fights to guys who weren't exactly all-time greats while champ.

Again, doesn't distract from their greatness, but to criticize Duran for not knocking out some crafty survivor types (and skillful ones at that (ask Alexis Arguello how easy Vilomar Fernandez was) and not point out that the other guys also went the distance with some so-so opponents in their lightweight primes is disingenuous.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

I rank Leonard above, Williams below.

Its a deep goddamn division.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:38 PM   #71
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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I rank Leonard above, Williams below.

Its a deep goddamn division.
The deepest. The most pound-for-pound greats and even a top-twenty-and-beyond consisting of fighters who seem like they should be top ten material.

The division is so stacked that you can't even fit top ten 'locks' into the top ten.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:56 PM   #72
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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What do you think about Eleta managing his extended reign at LW by having him defend against top 10 - Top Ten for christ sakes - lightweights only 50% of the time over the duration?
I'm sure I've said it before but you can't have him number one solely on resume. Although taking everything up to Dejesus III (and admittedly that is stretching the definition of 'lightweight') he is clearly top 10.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:10 PM   #73
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

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I'm sure I've said it before but you can't have him number one solely on resume. Although taking everything up to Dejesus III (and admittedly that is stretching the definition of 'lightweight') he is clearly top 10.
Granted, it wasn't a particularly deep pool past the top few guys anyway and he beat who he needed to, but literally anyone in the top ten is better than... Not top ten? The Cervantes fight Eleta balked at would've been nice. Easy to understand why, but we don't have to like it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:42 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

Duran beat Leonard, what victory in Sweet peas resume is greater than that? find one and I will rate Pea over Duran, find another lightweight with a greater victory on their resume. Find me a gassed past it old guy past prime who beats a Barkly and a Moore type oponent and we can begin to discuss wether Duran is overrated
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:03 AM   #75
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Default Re: Is Duran an overrated lightweight?

I think he's rated high because alot of people just love watching him
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