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View Poll Results: Was Liston-Ali II fixed?
Yes 17 43.59%
No 18 46.15%
I don't know 4 10.26%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-17-2012, 07:21 PM   #1
BillB
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Default Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

This was probably the most controversial fight in the last 100 years.

Let's put it to a poll.

I vote "fixed".

Former champions Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, and Gene Tunney, as well as Ali opponents George Chuvalo and Floyd Patterson, have all stated that they consider the fight to be a fake.

I agree with them.

Ali reportedly told his corner men that Liston had "laid down".

I think he was right.



PS- You can still be an Ali fan and think that this particular fight was rigged.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

I think it was fixed too.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Sonny was in the tank for this one...99.9% certain.

Why? Well, that is less certain in my view...
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

I don't think it was a fix in terms of there being outside forces at work. But, I do think Liston gave up, for whatever reason, He ****ed around on the ground just waiting for the ten count that was obvious, he could have got up. I think he realized he couldn't win, the knockdown was genuine IMO, It was a sharp fast punch right on the button.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

If you hold a gun to my head, then it was fixed.

It has every hallmark of a fixed fight.

An irregular betting pattern emerging before the fight.

The loosing fighter being KOd in the most failsafe manner, in terms of a fixed fight.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck!
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Here's what I think happened:

Liston went into the fight with the intention of going down early.

There are a couple of possible motives. He may have been afraid of the Black Muslims from whom he had been receiving death threats and who had recently assassinated Malcolm X.
He could have been paid to take a dive.
It could have been both.

The knockdown could have been legitimate or fake. I think it was fake, but it doesn't really matter.

Liston went down. He intended to stay down, but the cries of "fix" from the crowd and Ali screaming at him to get up and fight, made him decide to get up and go down later when it might be more believable.

Referee Walcott blew the call and stopped the fight even though Liston had not been counted out. The count had not even started.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Quitting does not equal taking a dive. Quitting means calling it a night when it becomes clear that winning is not in the cards, and while very little time had elapsed in the contest, I think this had already been made apparent to Sonny in rather humilating fashion.

Here's how the fight goes..

Ali steps out of the corner and hits Liston with his very first punch, a hard right hand. He then proceeds to avoid everything that Sonny throws at him during the minute that follows, and then hits him with another right hand to the top of the head. This shot connects with sufficient force to cause him to pitch forward and put his gloves on the mat to break his fall; but Liston's momentum carries him to his knees anyway.

So, in that minute, Ali has proved that he can avoid anything Liston throws at him and that he can hit him at will with the right and affect him with his punches. That was enough to convince Liston to call it a night. Unfortunately, Ali misread the gesture of submission; or didn't appreciate Liston's unwillingness to play the foil for him; and when he expressed his displeasure that caused Walcott to bungle the count.

Not a fix at all, imo. And the 'dive' only took place after a legit kd had already been scored. So it's a legit- and impressive- win for Ali, imo.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Fake, Fake, Fake

The whole promotion was a Sports Vision, Inc. 'set-up'

And 'all' the players made alot of cash.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Fake, Fake, Fake

The whole promotion was a Sports Vision, Inc. 'set-up'

And 'all' the players made alot of cash.
Ali & the Dundees, plus later add in King........and the stench always follows them around.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

No fix, bad reffreeing though.

Ali cought Liston and sent him down in what was a flash knockdown.
If it was a fix why did Liston get up and contune fighting afterwards? If he threw the fight why didn't he just stay down? The reffree Jersey Joe Walcott was informed by Nat Fleischer that Liston had been down for the 10 count. The fight was stopped with both men fighting.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
No fix, bad reffreeing though.

Ali cought Liston and sent him down in what was a flash knockdown.
If it was a fix why did Liston get up and contune fighting afterwards? If he threw the fight why didn't he just stay down? The reffree Jersey Joe Walcott was informed by Nat Fleischer that Liston had been down for the 10 count. The fight was stopped with both men fighting.

Two possible reasons that Liston got up:

1. He couldn't tell what was going on and thought he had been given a ten count and the fight was over. He knew he had been down long enough.

2. The crown was screaming "FIX", Ali was yelling at him to "get up and fight you yellow coward". Liston knew his dive wasn't credible. He got up with intentions of going down a round or two later.

Remember, Liston had been hauled before a Congressional investigative committee after the first fight. He wanted this dive to be more convincing than the first fight.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripcity View Post
No fix, bad reffreeing though.

Ali cought Liston and sent him down in what was a flash knockdown.
If it was a fix why did Liston get up and contune fighting afterwards? If he threw the fight why didn't he just stay down? The reffree Jersey Joe Walcott was informed by Nat Fleischer that Liston had been down for the 10 count. The fight was stopped with both men fighting.
I don't think Clay ever had the power to knock someone out with a short punch like that, in the 1st round. Liston got up because I believe he thought he already lost, and the fight went on for what? 5 seconds? By the way, Sonny seemed more than okay with the decision afterwards. Combine that with the controversy about their first fight and Sonny's reputation, I'd say it wouldn't hurt to think that this was indeed a fix.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Here is some good insight.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuLWvYRpVR4[/ame]
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

No... but Liston was able to continue. Not a fix, he quit.

Liston went down from a good shot while he was off balance. It was not a KO shot though. Liston got up, the fight continued, then Nat Fleischer felt the need to inform everybody that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds. It shouldn't have mattered if Liston had been down for an hour.... the count had not reached 10!
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: Liston-Ali II / fix or no fix?

Referee Jersey Joe Walcott should have said, "sit down fool, I got this" and the fight should have continued.
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