Top 15 Heavyweights ever?

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Jack Johnson
4 George Foreman
5 Lennox Lewis
6 Larry Holmes
7 Rocky Marciano
8 Mike Tyson
9 Joe Frazier
10 Wlad Klitschko
11 Evander Holyfield
12 Ezzard Charles
13 James Jeffries
14 Jack Dempsey
15 Harry Wills
16 Riddick Bowe
17 Gene Tunney
18 Sonny Liston
19 Sam Langford
20 John L Sullivan


can't really find room for jersey nor floyd which depresses me slightly.

Liston at #18 yet Wlad at #10????
Liston walks throgh 17-6 with ease

[Pachilles]

They're getting abit boring these HW lists for me lately. There's only two things for sure in it i think....Ali is number 1, Louis is number 2. Everyone else is in the ball pool

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

Liston at #18 yet Wlad at #10????
Liston walks throgh 17-6 with ease

Wlad has achieved far more as a hw than liston.

Obviously your criteria is based on a mythical h2h ranking. Mine isn't.

You say he'd walk through 17-6 but, he didn't did he. He beat valdes, folley, machen, williams and patterson but he missed out on ingo and lost twice to ali. The truth is, he was a flash in the pan. A man tipped for greatness who never realised it as champion.

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Wlad has achieved far more as a hw than liston.

Obviously your criteria is based on a mythical h2h ranking. Mine isn't.

You say he'd walk through 17-6 but, he didn't did he. He beat valdes, folley, machen, williams and patterson but he missed out on ingo and lost twice to ali. The truth is, he was a flash in the pan. A man tipped for greatness who never realised it as champion.

Which sounds a lot like Bowe who you have ahead of Liston?? Bowe had 1 prime peformance his entire career. He was never dominant at all. Liston ranks far higher than Bowe and should at LEAST break the top 10.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

Liston at #18 yet Wlad at #10????
Liston walks throgh 17-6 with ease

Bumbo, what criteria are you using? Liston could walk through any heavyweight to have walked the Earth, KO1 all the Ali's and Louis' and Holmes', but if he doesn't have the resume and achievements, he doesn't get ranked.

I'll bet Liston would KO Frazier. But Frazier has better wins and more notable achievements. I feel this is the best way to rank boxers, because it's based on facts, and things that we know took place.
H2H has too much subjectivity for my liking. Poster A may think Liston is the dog's bollocks and rate him highly, while Poster B may think that Liston doesn't win as many fights as Poster A, thus ranking him much lower.

EDIT: I do agree that Liston should be higher than Bowe. Bowe does have two wins over Evander Holyfield in their legendary trilogy, but Liston almost cleaned the house as a contender and savaged heavyweight ATG Floyd Patterson in one round apiece.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

Which sounds a lot like Bowe who you have ahead of Liston?? Bowe had 1 prime peformance his entire career. He was never dominant at all. Liston ranks far higher than Bowe and should at LEAST break the top 10.

That's exactly how I used to see bowe also, however the last two times I watched his rematch with holyfield I had it a draw. Meaning I think bowe was only lucky to lost his titles. in my eyes he never lost his spot as number 1 until tyson ripped through the division in 96.

Bowe is someone i'd favour over liston. He is someone I thinks has a better resume than liston. He is someone I think achieved more than liston. In my eyes he is unquestionably greater.

Liston was a great contender but a shit champion. Based on achievement and resume I find no way to justify a top ten position.

Based on who beats who he could be as high as number 2. That's just not how I rank fighters.

You must understand with list making there are different criteria suited to the list maker and how they perceive the sport. Yours is no wronger than mine and mine is no wronger than sugar's who's is no wronger than anyone elses.

Boxing is a subjective sport my friend.

It's all in the game, yo, it's all in the game.

[MrBumboclart]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

That's exactly how I used to see bowe also, however the last two times I watched his rematch with holyfield I had it a draw. Meaning I think bowe was only lucky to lost his titles. in my eyes he never lost his spot as number 1 until tyson ripped through the division in 96.

Bowe is someone i'd favour over liston. He is someone I thinks has a better resume than liston. He is someone I think achieved more than liston. In my eyes he is unquestionably greater.

Liston was a great contender but a shit champion. Based on achievement and resume I find no way to justify a top ten position.

Based on who beats who he could be as high as number 2. That's just not how I rank fighters.

You must understand with list making there are different criteria suited to the list maker and how they perceive the sport. Yours is no wronger than mine and mine is no wronger than sugar's who's is no wronger than anyone elses.

Boxing is a subjective sport my friend.

It's all in the game, yo, it's all in the game.

I agree its subjective but I totally disagree. Liston didn't throw his belt in the trash to avoid the #1 contender. And I think his resume is more impressive than Bowe's. Bowe's best win is over a former crusierweight and it took him to decision to do it - I doubt Holy would last 15 with Sonny. And I think Sonny's run to the title is more impressive than any heavyweight champion ever. Just my opinion tho

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

I agree its subjective but I totally disagree. Liston didn't throw his belt in the trash to avoid the #1 contender. And I think his resume is more impressive than Bowe's. Bowe's best win is over a former crusierweight and it took him to decision to do it - I doubt Holy would last 15 with Sonny. And I think Sonny's run to the title is more impressive than any heavyweight champion ever. Just my opinion tho

No liston quit on his stool against the number 1 contender.

Bowe's best win is over a borderline top ten atg hw. A heavyweight who'd school liston imo.

Well that's your opinion. I think lewis and johnson hold that acclaim. Jersey Joe has a good shout also.

[orriray59]

Holyfield vs. Liston I think would be a fantastic battle actually, and yeah I think Holyfield edges it out. He has experience with big heavyweights (Bowe, Lewis, Valuev, etc.)

[Danmann]

Top four:
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson

Vitali is close
he comes in at number 5

6) Walcott
7)Holmes
8Charles
9) tunney
10Ali (most overated IMO)
11Shmeling
12) Frazier


Foreman, John L. Sullivan, and Johnson round it out reason Ipic those 3 over Holyfield, Lewis, or whoever else someone will scream about is historical edge. Jack John, fist Black heavyweight champ, held title well, John L.--2of biggest fights at end of 1800's, won one (Killrain last bare knuckle title bout) and Corbett fight, first gloved tile bout. It was John L. Sullivan, not Corbett, who was at forefront of going to gloved bouts. Foreman, for winning title almost 20 years apart, and with totally different style.


Liston, Marvin Hart, and a few others are last.

[Bummy Davis]

Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Ali
Jack Dempsey
Lennox Lewis
Jersey Joe Walcott
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Max Baer
Max Schmeling
Sonny Liston

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by MrBumboclart

Can't believe the way you guys rank Liston!? He is easily among the 5 greatest heavyweights of all time. He was unlucky to be ducked for so many years we never saw him as a dominant champ however he cleaned the division as a contender moreso than Patterson did as the champion. He was also unlucky to run into a prime Clay. He beats them all bar Ali and possibly Louis, however I would be suprised is Joe's chin stood up to Liston's bombs.

Liston was a lot like a failed Marciano. Cleaned the division out, took the title, but couldn't finish the reign when his body was starting to leave it's prime.

[brnxhands]

How some people have Tyson unlisted or ranked at number 15 is beyond crazy

[brnxhands]

brb ranking Jeffries over the youngest heavy champ ever. 9 title defenses against solid capable opponents. Did a few years in prison was able to come out n reclaim a few belts while faded badly.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by Danmann

Top four:
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson

Vitali is close
he comes in at number 5

6) Walcott
7)Holmes
8Charles
9) tunney
10Ali (most overated IMO)
11Shmeling
12) Frazier


Foreman, John L. Sullivan, and Johnson round it out reason Ipic those 3 over Holyfield, Lewis, or whoever else someone will scream about is historical edge. Jack John, fist Black heavyweight champ, held title well, John L.--2of biggest fights at end of 1800's, won one (Killrain last bare knuckle title bout) and Corbett fight, first gloved tile bout. It was John L. Sullivan, not Corbett, who was at forefront of going to gloved bouts. Foreman, for winning title almost 20 years apart, and with totally different style.


Liston, Marvin Hart, and a few others are last.

I just lost hope for humanity.