Jeffries v the Top Lhv's?

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

I would bet some money on Conn tbh....

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Thanks for your in put Adam.
Pics of Jeffries show man who had not trained assiduously for their fight.

I have told you Munroe's weight for years, and listed the San Francisco pre and post fight report. Jeffries crushed him in two rounds. This is an example of Jeffries hitting power as no man did anything close to this to Munroe. Years later Johnson took a fatter Munroe the distance.

[apollack]

Originally Posted by mcvey

This if excellent stuff A.A.

Now ,can you give us your gut feeling of what Munroe actually weighed?

I actually think most fighters weighed MORE than what they self reported. For whatever reason, fighters liked to claim that they weighed less, not more. Few were actually willing to publicly take the scales. Also, when they did weigh, it was usually at the end of a long hard day of training, after they had burned off weight running and doing gym work, rather than at the start of the day. Plus it would be several days before a fight. Usually fighters took on weight as a fight approached, because they tapered their training and rested more, hence they did not burn as much. So often the weights reported were those post workout weights taken many days before the fight. The fighters rarely stepped on the scales for the fights the day of the fight or even the day before, so we'll never know for sure. That bothers modern folks, who are so hell bent on weight numbers. Back then, if you were a heavyweight, which had no weight requirement whatsoever, you did not have to prove your weight. So they did not even bother. Many fighters were asked to step on the scales by reporters, but for whatever reason, they were squeamish about doing so. The truth is that most weight numbers you see on boxrec or in books are just estimates, self reported numbers, or weights taken after a workout some day several days or a week before a fight. No one knows for sure. That is why I will often offer what several primary sources said at the time.

I've seen some photos of Munroe and he looks like a big dude. Some he looks pudgier than others, but there was muscle there too. I've seen a couple where he looks like an Adonis and very buff. He had thick muscular tree trunk legs too, which can add a lot to one's weight.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

I have told you Munroe's weight for years, and listed the San Francisco pre and post fight report. Jeffries crushed him in two rounds. This is an example of Jeffries hitting power as no man did anything close to this to Munroe. Years later Johnson took a fatter Munroe the distance.

Johnson carried Munroe, he won every round, the papers remarked how little Munroe knew about fighting, this about a man who had challenged for the title?

Do you seriously think I give credence to anything that comes out of your fatuous mouth?

Heres the first Jeffries /Munroe encounter.What do you think of this spin on it?

[URL]********news.google.com/newspapers?id=2UtFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uLsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5253,5010642&dq=jeffries+munroe+fight&hl=en[/URL]


Now, can we get back to the topic?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by apollack

I actually think most fighters weighed MORE than what they self reported. For whatever reason, fighters liked to claim that they weighed less, not more. Few were actually willing to publicly take the scales. Also, when they did weigh, it was usually at the end of a long hard day of training, after they had burned off weight running and doing gym work, rather than at the start of the day. Plus it would be several days before a fight. Usually fighters took on weight as a fight approached, because they tapered their training and rested more, hence they did not burn as much. So often the weights reported were those post workout weights taken many days before the fight. The fighters rarely stepped on the scales for the fights the day of the fight or even the day before, so we'll never know for sure. That bothers modern folks, who are so hell bent on weight numbers. Back then, if you were a heavyweight, which had no weight requirement whatsoever, you did not have to prove your weight. So they did not even bother. Many fighters were asked to step on the scales by reporters, but for whatever reason, they were squeamish about doing so. The truth is that most weight numbers you see on boxrec or in books are just estimates, self reported numbers, or weights taken after a workout some day several days or a week before a fight. No one knows for sure. That is why I will often offer what several primary sources said at the time.

I've seen some photos of Munroe and he looks like a big dude. Some he looks pudgier than others, but there was muscle there too. I've seen a couple where he looks like an Adonis and very buff. He had thick muscular tree trunk legs too, which can add a lot to one's weight.

Two overweight men below. Munroe's weight is centred in his arse ,and thighs, Jeffries has no muscle tone at all ,and carries a paunch.


[IMG]***********.josportsinc.com/item_images/1121807688.jpg[/IMG]

[Danmann]

I was looking at Jeffires record, I forgot he had once beaten Peter Jackson by ko. I can't see so many lightheavies beating him. l

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Danmann

I was looking at Jeffires record, I forgot he had once beaten Peter Jackson by ko. I can't see so many lightheavies beating him. l

It's possible that Jeffries may have beaten a prime Jackson.
However to evaluate their actual fight you would have to take into account that Jackson was in the first stages of the TB that would subsequently kill him,was an alcoholic ,was 37 years old and had engaged in 6 rds of boxing ,against no hoper Gustav Wilkie2-3-1 in the previous 7 years.

[apollack]

Yup. Peter Jackson was well past it and was a shell of himself when he fought Jeff. Like Jeff against Johnson, he got into great shape and looked good physically and even looked good in the gym. Many thought he would go the distance with Jeff or at least make a good fight of it for about 10 rounds. Some thought he might make it a draw. But when you haven't fought or taken boxing seriously for many years, you simply aren't going to have it against a powerful young lion when it comes to actual fighting. Still, it was impressive that Jeff took him out so quickly, particularly given Jackson's known boxing prowess and skill. And Jackson weighed about 200 pounds.

There is no talk of Jackson having TB at that point. That excuse is a myth. His handicap was years of drinking and inactivity. He fought Jeff in March 98. He fought again over a year later, in August 99. He did not die until two years after that, in July 1901. And back then, there was no treatment for TB, so it did not take all that long for one to die from it.

George Foreman had a bit of a stomach, but he was still a powerful man. Tony Tubbs has a stomach, but he was still fast as lightning and skillful. Body type is not of as much relevance in boxing. Those guys were in shape and muscular. Sure they had a layer of fat too. But they were in shape. Some thought Jeff was closer to 230 than not.

Munroe was no joke. He had amateur experience at the Olympic Club, had sparred a lot of top fighters who spoke well of him, including Tom Sharkey, Joe Kennedy, Jack O'Brien, and Jack Beauscholte, had reputedly knocked out Fred Russell and Yank Kenny, and had gone 20 rounds with Hank Griffin as a pro. After going 4 rounds with Jeff, his subsequent exhibition bouts and victories over guys like Jack Sullivan, Mose Lafontise, Ike Hayes, Tom West, Peter Maher, 220-pound Al Limerick and Tom Sharkey served to justify his claims that he could give Jeff a tough time of it. Although he fibbed and exaggerated about his performance against Jeff in their exhibition, the press surrounding such claims, combined with his victories over strong punchers like Maher, Limerick, and most importantly, Sharkey, served to garner the necessary momentum for a Jeffries fight. Plus Jeff really badly wanted to KO him, because he was clearly irked by what Munroe was claiming about their exhibition.

It's all there in my book, In the Ring With James J. Jeffries.

[red cobra]

Both Conn and Loughran would beat Jeffries..and as an aside, Conn beats Moore, Foster, Spinks and any other lightheavyweight you can name.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by Danmann

I was looking at Jeffires record, I forgot he had once beaten Peter Jackson by ko. I can't see so many lightheavies beating him. l

Jackson was shot at the time........

[edward morbius]

Without stepping into long-standing arguments, the photo above of Munroe with Jeffries backs up that he was a big man, as tall as Jeff. I was just reading a detailed newspaper account of this fight and Munroe's weight is given as 210. Off that photo, that seems reasonable.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mcvey

It's possible that Jeffries may have beaten a prime Jackson.
However to evaluate their actual fight you would have to take into account that Jackson was in the first stages of the TB that would subsequently kill him,was an alcoholic ,was 37 years old and had engaged in 6 rds of boxing ,against no hoper Gustav Wilkie2-3-1 in the previous 7 years.

Sure Jackson was past his best, but papers say he trained well and re-ganiend his form. Jeffries, who was green then, did what he was supposed to do. Finish the match quickly.

The match was essentially over in two rounds, well before stamina or lack there of became a factor for Jackson. Jackson had a good first round. He simply could not take Jeffries punches.

Its not like Jeffries took 15 rounds to beat a washed up x champ.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Without stepping into long-standing arguments, the photo above of Munroe with Jeffries backs up that he was a big man, as tall as Jeff. I was just reading a detailed newspaper account of this fight and Munroe's weight is given as 210. Off that photo, that seems reasonable.

McVey won't learn Ed. He has been making this mistake for years...

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by apollack

Yup. Peter Jackson was well past it and was a shell of himself when he fought Jeff. Like Jeff against Johnson, he got into great shape and looked good physically and even looked good in the gym. Many thought he would go the distance with Jeff or at least make a good fight of it for about 10 rounds. Some thought he might make it a draw. But when you haven't fought or taken boxing seriously for many years, you simply aren't going to have it against a powerful young lion when it comes to actual fighting. Still, it was impressive that Jeff took him out so quickly, particularly given Jackson's known boxing prowess and skill. And Jackson weighed about 200 pounds.

There is no talk of Jackson having TB at that point. That excuse is a myth. His handicap was years of drinking and inactivity. He fought Jeff in March 98. He fought again over a year later, in August 99. He did not die until two years after that, in July 1901. And back then, there was no treatment for TB, so it did not take all that long for one to die from it.

George Foreman had a bit of a stomach, but he was still a powerful man. Tony Tubbs has a stomach, but he was still fast as lightning and skillful. Body type is not of as much relevance in boxing. Those guys were in shape and muscular. Sure they had a layer of fat too. But they were in shape. Some thought Jeff was closer to 230 than not.

Munroe was no joke. He had amateur experience at the Olympic Club, had sparred a lot of top fighters who spoke well of him, including Tom Sharkey, Joe Kennedy, Jack O'Brien, and Jack Beauscholte, had reputedly knocked out Fred Russell and Yank Kenny, and had gone 20 rounds with Hank Griffin as a pro. After going 4 rounds with Jeff, his subsequent exhibition bouts and victories over guys like Jack Sullivan, Mose Lafontise, Ike Hayes, Tom West, Peter Maher, 220-pound Al Limerick and Tom Sharkey served to justify his claims that he could give Jeff a tough time of it. Although he fibbed and exaggerated about his performance against Jeff in their exhibition, the press surrounding such claims, combined with his victories over strong punchers like Maher, Limerick, and most importantly, Sharkey, served to garner the necessary momentum for a Jeffries fight. Plus Jeff really badly wanted to KO him, because he was clearly irked by what Munroe was claiming about their exhibition.

It's all there in my book, In the Ring With James J. Jeffries.

Jackson's TB has been attributed to his cracked ribs against Frank Slavin back in 1892.



"After 1892 Jackson was unable to obtain fights. Past his prime, he was debilitated by fast living and probably even then tubercular. He taught boxing, worked as a publican, toured as an actor in Uncle Tom's Cabin and boxed exhibitions. In March 1898 he was sacrificed to Jim Jeffries, who flattened him in three rounds, and next year suffered the third of his losses in thirty-seven fights at the hands of a fourth-rater at Vancouver. Money was raised to send him to Australia, where he toured with Fitzgerald's circus but he was too ill to box. After several benefits he was sent to Queensland where he died of tuberculosis at Roma on 13 July 1901. He was buried with Anglican rites and pomp in Toowong cemetery. A magnificent tomb was later erected by subscription with the words, 'This was a man'."


I think the consensus is that Sharkey was badly washed up when he met Munroe, he is a name on Munroe's belt nothing more.


Jeffries went to the theatre the night before the Munroe fight,and slept till noon onthe day of the fight, I think he knew he had little to beat ,and his condition indicates just that.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Without stepping into long-standing arguments, the photo above of Munroe with Jeffries backs up that he was a big man, as tall as Jeff. I was just reading a detailed newspaper account of this fight and Munroe's weight is given as 210. Off that photo, that seems reasonable.

Munroe was under 6 feet tall.