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Old 08-22-2012, 06:41 PM   #61
jowcol
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
So where is your evidence that Floyd deceived anyone and that he was injured during training? You can spin this any way you want but once again you have made a huge leap in trying to tie together your argument and it just doesnt add up.

Floyd Patterson was one of the most honorable men this sport has ever seen and yet in order to paint Ali as being a blown up hype job you feel the need to drag his name through the mud while in another thread you try to elevate Thad Spencer of all people to near Charley Burley levels of being ducked. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

What in Spencer's record in 1965 makes you think he should have been considered over Patterson as a contender for Ali? Was it his win over Rischer, or his revenge win over light heavyweight Chuck Leslie? I mean after all, Spencer did lose that same night to slow, plodding, human catchers mit Amos Lincoln. But you think he should have gotten a shot at Ali.

Or are we now talking about 1967, 2 years later? Nobody gave two shits about Spencer at that point either. To put this in perspective Ali made $90,000 fighting Chuvalo one month before your proposed April 1967 bout against Spencer. Spencers last bout had been against Doug Jones and the ENTIRE GATE totalled $28,000.

You criticize Ali for fighting Brian London instead of Spencer but do you know how much money Ali made against London? Over $250,000. He couldnt have gotten one tenth that amount to fight Spencer and thats where your conspiracy theories fall flat.

Its called PRIZE FIGHTING and Spencer had not adequately built up his name enough to be thrown in to the big money fights. He had an opportunity with the elimination tournament and it ruined his career.

Dont blame Ali that Spencer couldnt bring home the bacon. You go out and force a fight by fighting and beating the best. By the time Spencer broke in to that class of opposition Ali was banned and Spencer subsequently showed he wasnt able to compete at that level.
I've said basically the same thing in this thread, and the other thread, tho not nearly as well as LT.
As a 59 year old fight fan who, thanks to my dad, was a fan from 59-60 forward (obviously a huge Patterson lover) I was all excited about the elimination tourney in 67. Thad? Who was he? Many pundits hailed him as a possible winner? Beat Terrell. Got pummeled by Quarry. Went 0-7-1 after Quarry. Had no quality wins prior to the tourney. What is the nut-hugging ''Thad-itis" going on here? You can make a long list of fighters that could have been, should have been when, given the opportunity, quite literally, fell flat on their face.
Thad Spencer CERTAINLY falls into that catagory.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:58 PM   #62
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Lets say for arguments sake that Patterson, one of the most honorable men to ever lace on gloves, lied to and defrauded everyone associated with the fight, as Duce would have us believe, just for a payday. So what? The entire point of all of these posts by Duce is to drag down Ali's record. We all know that. Yet, Ali would have known nothing of Patterson's supposed injury. He came and did his job and took care of business. Had he been in on a conspiracy whereby he knowing fought a cripple I could see the argument. But it isnt, and hasnt been proven that Patterson did anything wrong and certainly not Ali so where's the beef? Talk about a tempest in a teapot.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:23 AM   #63
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Lets say for arguments sake that Patterson, one of the most honorable men to ever lace on gloves, lied to and defrauded everyone associated with the fight, as Duce would have us believe, just for a payday. So what? The entire point of all of these posts by Duce is to drag down Ali's record. We all know that. Yet, Ali would have known nothing of Patterson's supposed injury. He came and did his job and took care of business. Had he been in on a conspiracy whereby he knowing fought a cripple I could see the argument. But it isnt, and hasnt been proven that Patterson did anything wrong and certainly not Ali so where's the beef? Talk about a tempest in a teapot.


Good post,Lord.


A tempest in a teacup,indeed. Amazing,when you consider that Ali has the best resume out of any heavyweight champion ever ! Every champ has one or two soft ones on their c.v.

Last edited by Stevie G; 08-23-2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Obviously, some of you miss the point.

Floyd Patterson wasn't only doing this for a 'pay-day', which was quite nice I might add.

But, it was his fear of becoming a 'nobody'. This was his 'last chance' or so he thought
at getting a chance at the World Heavyweight Championship.

I-C-P Promotions, who promoted the bout, put pressure on Floyd to go through
with the bout, as they would not postpone the event to allow for him to rest
his back. They had too much money invested.

If he 'pulled out', they would have buried him in the 'contender heap', as Cassius Clay
was already looking towards Ernie Terrell next, with George Chuvalo and the European Tour to follow.

Read, Fred Brooks from Sports Vision, Inc. 'I'm sorry, but if Floyd cancelled, we would have never
put him in another bout. The fight had to go on in November in Las Vegas, as there were no
other available dates at the Convention Center.'
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #65
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
So where is your evidence that Floyd deceived anyone and that he was injured during training? You can spin this any way you want but once again you have made a huge leap in trying to tie together your argument and it just doesnt add up.

Floyd Patterson was one of the most honorable men this sport has ever seen and yet in order to paint Ali as being a blown up hype job you feel the need to drag his name through the mud while in another thread you try to elevate Thad Spencer of all people to near Charley Burley levels of being ducked. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

What in Spencer's record in 1965 makes you think he should have been considered over Patterson as a contender for Ali? Was it his win over Rischer, or his revenge win over light heavyweight Chuck Leslie? I mean after all, Spencer did lose that same night to slow, plodding, human catchers mit Amos Lincoln. But you think he should have gotten a shot at Ali.

Or are we now talking about 1967, 2 years later? Nobody gave two shits about Spencer at that point either. To put this in perspective Ali made $90,000 fighting Chuvalo one month before your proposed April 1967 bout against Spencer. Spencers last bout had been against Doug Jones and the ENTIRE GATE totalled $28,000.

You criticize Ali for fighting Brian London instead of Spencer but do you know how much money Ali made against London? Over $250,000. He couldnt have gotten one tenth that amount to fight Spencer and thats where your conspiracy theories fall flat.

Its called PRIZE FIGHTING and Spencer had not adequately built up his name enough to be thrown in to the big money fights. He had an opportunity with the elimination tournament and it ruined his career.

Dont blame Ali that Spencer couldnt bring home the bacon. You go out and force a fight by fighting and beating the best. By the time Spencer broke in to that class of opposition Ali was banned and Spencer subsequently showed he wasnt able to compete at that level.
Just re-posting this because Lord Tywin's insight here trumps anything any of us are saying. Start a new thread Senor, as you've promised. Geez, we're all waiting on the edge of our seats for you to tell us how Thad's demons resulted in losing his final eight fights after Quarry.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:41 PM   #66
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Obviously, some of you miss the point.

Floyd Patterson wasn't only doing this for a 'pay-day', which was quite nice I might add.

But, it was his fear of becoming a 'nobody'. This was his 'last chance' or so he thought
at getting a chance at the World Heavyweight Championship.

I-C-P Promotions, who promoted the bout, put pressure on Floyd to go through
with the bout, as they would not postpone the event to allow for him to rest
his back. They had too much money invested.

If he 'pulled out', they would have buried him in the 'contender heap', as Cassius Clay
was already looking towards Ernie Terrell next, with George Chuvalo and the European Tour to follow.

Read, Fred Brooks from Sports Vision, Inc. 'I'm sorry, but if Floyd cancelled, we would have never
put him in another bout. The fight had to go on in November in Las Vegas, as there were no
other available dates at the Convention Center.'
So an obscure promotional outfit from Las Vegas was going to bury Floyd Patterson, one of the biggest names in the sport at that time, professionally?

Considering Floyd actually never did fight in Las Vegas again, as you pointed out, only fought there twice in his entire career, Id say thats about as empty a threat as you can make.

Especially so when you consider that at the time Patterson had just won the fight of the year, was the consensus number 1 contender, and AFTER Ali would go on to fight several more important heavyweight matches over the next seven years.

I guess the all powerful Sports Vision and I-C-P just felt so good about Floyds performance against Ali that they decided not to ruin his career with an iron fist
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:57 AM   #67
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Sport's Vision and I-C-P were the 'two' big players at the time.

What the hell is wrong with you, don't you know anything about 1963 thru 1965.

And, they made money, alot of it.

Sports Vision was out of New York City, I guess you never heard of that place.

And I-C-P, was out of Baltimore, Maryland. The Nilon Brothers were the largest concessionaires on the east coast.

More facts for you to absorb.
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:22 PM   #68
Lord Tywin
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

There were promotional outfits all over the country at that time in the vacuum created by the fall of the IBC. MSG was the largest most powerful promotional outfit and even it wasnt THAT powerful compared to the IBC or future promoters such as Top Rank and DKP.

This is why during this period you started seeing major fights fought all over the country and all over the world instead of in centralized locations such as Detroit, New York, and Chicago where the IBC owned major venues. And not under one or two major promotional banners as you do now, or as was the case when the IBC monopolized the sport and killed off any competition either through unfair business practices or intimidation.

Lets not pretend that Sports Vision and ICP could have EVER ruined Pattersons career. And simply because Nilon Brothers ran a wide spread concessionairy does not mean they had ANY power to ruin boxers.

The ICP was not in any position to flex any muscle because they were under close scrutiny throughout their relatively short existence by law enforcement who felt that Liston and Nilon's involvement pointed toward possible organized crime connections: i.e. Blinky Palermo.

This company was hounded and hemmed in on all sides by congress, the IRS, and various other private litigators literally from its inception to its dissolution.

There was absolutely no wiggle room to flex any real or imagined muscle and this was shown clearly, when at the height of its power it was outmuscled and outmaneuvered by the black Muslims backing Ali. They are so powerful they will ruin Patterson's career but they cant protect their only fighter, the heavyweight champion, and the reason why they were formed in the first place against an entity that had absolutely no ties to boxing?

Its an absolute joke to suggest that it could have had any effect on Patterson's career.

As for Mel Greb, he was an even more minor player than the ICP. And Mel Greb was a Las Vegas promoter, make no mistake about that. Greb was so all powerful that within less than ten years he was swallowed up by the fledgling top rank and became simply an employee.


Just more facts for you to absorb.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:59 PM   #69
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Im really enjoying this 'to and fro' with Sp and LT.


Both guys know their stuff. Keep it up
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:20 PM   #70
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

John Maff,,,

This is all for your enjoyement........

Let's not forget,,,,,,,,Cassius Clay had to give I-C-P one more promtion, which
was the Floyd Patterson bout.

Which was, the most lucrative fight out there at the end of 1965.

I-C-P Promotions made a 'killing' with the closed circuit broadcast.

I-C-P got to choose the opponent, and Floyd was the 'biggest' money maker.
Whether he was injured or not, he was going through with the bout.

After that, I-C-P could care less about Floyd.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Main Bout took over after that, and lost a 'boat load' promoting the
George Chuvalo bout in early-1966.

The fight was a 'dog'.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:00 PM   #71
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

See youve just talked yourself in to a corner again. You admit that Patterson-Ali was the most lucrative fight of 1965 and that Patterson was Alis #1 contender, so what exactly is the motivation to face Thad Spencer of all people over Patterson?
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:48 AM   #72
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
See youve just talked yourself in to a corner again. You admit that Patterson-Ali was the most lucrative fight of 1965 and that Patterson was Alis #1 contender, so what exactly is the motivation to face Thad Spencer of all people over Patterson?

Exactly !!!!!!


Anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge will know that Spencer would have got his shot had Muhammad's career not been interrupted.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:47 AM   #73
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

Again,,,,,,,,Sir Lord,,,,,,,,,,,,you miss the point.

The only 'big money fight' out there for late-1965 was Cassius Clay versus Floyd Patterson,
and Las Vegas wanted it.

My point is, that Thad Spencer and Amos Lincoln - both would have been better opponents
versus Cassius Clay that night. Nothing other than that.

Floyd couldn't get out of that fight in Las Vegas, no matter what the circumstances.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

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Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
I've said basically the same thing in this thread, and the other thread, tho not nearly as well as LT.
As a 59 year old fight fan who, thanks to my dad, was a fan from 59-60 forward (obviously a huge Patterson lover) I was all excited about the elimination tourney in 67. Thad? Who was he? Many pundits hailed him as a possible winner? Beat Terrell. Got pummeled by Quarry. Went 0-7-1 after Quarry. Had no quality wins prior to the tourney. What is the nut-hugging ''Thad-itis" going on here? You can make a long list of fighters that could have been, should have been when, given the opportunity, quite literally, fell flat on their face.
Thad Spencer CERTAINLY falls into that catagory.
I studied medical terminology in school..I think a case of "Thaditis" is when your Thad gets inflamed.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:18 PM   #75
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson 'Oh, My Achin Back' 11/22/65

"Sonny Likes Floyd's Chances"

Sonny Liston who visted Floyd Patterson's training camp at
The Thunderbird Hotel, on Monday November 15th said,
'He wished Floyd well, and watched the 2-Time former Champion
workout. Floyd looked pretty good when he moved, but I still
don't like to see him squaring up to throw punches.'

Two days later, on Wednesday, Floyd cut out all training, as
there were concerns of a possible injury.

Fred Brooks, President of Sports Vision Inc., said 'All systems
are go, and any rumors of an injury are not true. Floyd will
be in the ring, that I will assure you.'

There are more rumors, of Patterson's sparring partner, Jimmy 'The King' Fletcher
dropping Floyd several times in recent sessions, which have caused
a concern about Floyd's ability to take a punch, or possible injury.

Jimmy Fletcher is scheduled to fight in one of the preliminary bouts on the
undercard November 22.



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Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 08-25-2012 at 09:43 PM.
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