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View Poll Results: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?
Johnson wins one 1 7.14%
Johnson wins two 7 50.00%
Johnson wins three 3 21.43%
Johnson wins all four matches. 3 21.43%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2012, 10:48 AM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Thread should have read vs. “ Sucessors “ , and included an option for zero wins. I guess I have to post too early in the AM these days…

I have seen you compare Hopkins to Johnson, and I think they are very different in many respects. Luckily we have plenty of film on both for a compare and contrast.

Compare:

1 ) Both were good counter punchers who didn’t always engage.

2 ) Both could fight a little dirty

Contrast:

1 ) Hopkins has a high guard. Johnson does not.

2 ) Hopkins throws more punches on film. Johnson throws far less punches, and this would be a real problem in many fights, since he was not known for early stoppage wins.

3 ) Hopkins was often matched vs. class fighters in their prime. Johnson fought very few class fighters in their primes, and the one he did were MUCH smaller than him many cases. Johnson really did not accept matches as champion ( 1909-1915 ) vs. the best out there in Langford, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, or McVey. When you in there with shorter, less skilled or past their prime opponents it’s not that hard to look good on defense. The lone man Johnson fought with skills was O’Brien, and his defense did very little here. So would any prime all time great heavy with skills really have a hard time landing on Johnson?

4 ) Johnson clinched far more than Hopkins did.

5 ) Hopkins fought guys his own size. Johnson seldom fought prime guys his own size or bigger yet when he did he lost to Hart and Willard, and for what’s it’s worth was whacked out in a 4 round sparring match vs. Gunboat Smith when Johnson was a champion in his prime. Smith of course was a white hope type only in name, not ability with wins over Willard and Moran…yet not title shot for him?

6 ) In a pound for pound sense, Hopkins was far more durable.

I agree, Johnson can frustrate very short heavies ( 5’7” burns, @168 pounds ) stationary super middle weight types ( Ketchel ), or short fringe contenders types ( Flynn ), but many could do the same. Any top heavyweight worth his weight in salt should blow these types out. Taking Ross the distance? Not impressed. Barely outpointing Moran? Not impressed.

I think Johnson would likely win one match here and lose there.
The replies and, votes in this poll, sure didn't give you the result you were looking for did they?
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

Jack Johnson was great for strange tales, but he was probably talking some sense when he claimed that he would have beaten Louis.

Joe's subtle pressure would work better against somebody like Ali who committed fundamental sins. Johnson was an oracle regarding form and he was content playing cat n' mouse all night long. Because Louis was generally wired for the knock out there were moments when his form suffered, moments Johnson would be looking out for like a Harpy Eagle.

For Ted Spoons money Johnson was a fighter who simply 'knew more' than Louis, and over a frustrating fifteen rounds it would show.

Dempsey has the best chance of making Johnson uncomfortable and putting him on his back with a creative fireworks display.

Trying to devise a game plan for somebody as uncooperative as Johnson would give the Fighting Marine a migraine. Johnson would grin with endless patience and strike with the cleaner blows.

Marciano would have a better chance if Johnson wasn't so physically strong. The way in which he clamped your arms and sieved through uppercuts would pose a huge challenge for the Brockton Blockbuster. It'd be a struggle but Johnson would improve on Charles' effort, making a holy mess of the Rocks face and grabbing the decision.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:39 AM   #18
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by Ted Spoon View Post
Because Louis was generally wired for the knock out there were moments when his form suffered
I disagree entirely. I don't think Louis was wired for the knockout - at all - and I don't think he made fundamental errors.

Johnson made more.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

I think Sullivan beats Johnson.

Otherwise, I think Johnson takes Corbett, Jackson, Goddard, Maher and prime Fitzsimmons.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by Ted Spoon View Post
Marciano would have a better chance if Johnson wasn't so physically strong. The way in which he clamped your arms and sieved through uppercuts would pose a huge challenge for the Brockton Blockbuster. It'd be a struggle but Johnson would improve on Charles' effort, making a holy mess of the Rocks face and grabbing the decision.
Seamus© can not rationalize an argument wherein the guy who struggled with Hart beats Marciano. Seamus© believes that one of Marciano's great hallmarks and conversely Johnson's weakest facet was consistency of performance. This leads Seamus© to believe the holy mess in this affair would be Johnson.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:01 PM   #21
Ted Spoon
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

'Wired' was perhaps a little blunt, but a concussion was the preference and that is why Louis invariably stalked. Joe could be guilty of overcooking efforts and that is why Farr got off with a good amount of leather. These sleepy periods were a direct result of musing over the right counters.

It's not a jab at Louis, but an acknowledgement that it wasn't always picture-perfect. As Freddie Roach says, these weren't mistakes but habits.

Generally these habits were too minute to be punished; unless we add Mr. Johnson into the equation who liked to spend his time ruining yours.

The Johnson over Louis theory is an old one, and it has sound reasoning.
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Old 08-22-2012, 12:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

Joe absolutely did not overcook, with any kid of regularity. He maintained balance despite of some of the most devastating torque the division has ever seen.

Demspey was far, far more guilty of over-extending.

It is interesting you bring Roach up.

He called Joe Louis the most technically correct boxer of all time and the greatest technical boxer of all time both.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

I don't think Louis hunted the knockout. Infact I think he was just that natural a puncher it came for him. Until he had someone "on the hook" he was very patient, it's just that he hit like a mule kicks.

He's just a perfect fighting machine and the ko came naturally to him imo.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

I think he would beat Dempsey and Marciano.....
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Joe absolutely did not overcook, with any kid of regularity. He maintained balance despite of some of the most devastating torque the division has ever seen.
Not the effort itself but the process; there were noticeable hushes because he was at his most destructive when the opponent led.

Case in point, trying to get Johnson to lead would do ugly things to his method.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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These aren't his predecessors. They are some of his successor.

He'd be tough for Louis, but I believe Louis would get there.

Marciano would beat him on points.

Dempsey, I'd say he's close to 50.50.

Tunney is a very interesting fight. Very interesting.
Pretty much this, although while Tunney is interesting I tend to think Johnson should be a considerable favorite (Nothing overwhelming). I might wager to say he should be a very slim favorite over Dempsey, but I can go back on forth with that. It feels like a pretty good 50/50 affair.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by Ted Spoon View Post
Not the effort itself but the process; there were noticeable hushes because he was at his most destructive when the opponent led.

Case in point, trying to get Johnson to lead would do ugly things to his method.
Louis would have been jabbing Johnson with by far - by far - the best jab he had ever seen. This is the punch Louis went to whenever he couldn't get his opponent to lead. He jabbed guys heads off when they refused to lead, and sometimes even when they did lead, and sometimes even when he was landing his combination punches.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Originally Posted by Ted Spoon View Post
Not the effort itself but the process; there were noticeable hushes because he was at his most destructive when the opponent led.

Case in point, trying to get Johnson to lead would do ugly things to his method.
Almost anyone is. I don't think that follows with the logic of Louis needing to get Johnson to lead, or that Louis would be helpless initiating or stalking. Your arguments for why Johnson over Louis have been fair enough, though.

Louis could get a bit... robotic is not the right word but I'm at a loss for the right word. Louis was technical as much of a boxer as anyone but he had the mentality of a puncher. An uncoiled lion. But one that could be caught while he was changing gears. There's no specific technical flaw to highlight of Louis besides the one Schemling exposed which later became corrected. But I do think the criticism that Louis lacked adaptability, and in some ways was slower of mind than body holds some validity. Johnson might have been a bit too passive to have ever out-tricked or overcome Louis in my estimation. If he truly had the skills some believe he did, and had the gall I think Johnson might have the smarts to win hypothetically speaking (The reality suggests he probably wanted based on his demeanor). I mean passive in that Johnson might not throw enough, risk enough. Fighting Louis seems sort of like playing a computer in chess. I'm not sure you can win by trying to be more "sound." I think you need to gambit, be clever, trap, and counter-play & attack with aggression.

If you beffudle Louis he can sort of get stuck. Louis wasn't machine-like per se, but was creatively limited by choice and style in some ways.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

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Is anyone else getting high on Tunney lately? it seems he's rising through my rankings on a daily basis and I can't really explain it
Maybe P4P but certainly not at HW.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: How would Jack Johnson fare vs. his predecessors in the following matches?

I think Dempsey vs Johnson would be a cat and mouse game for a couple of rounds. Dempsey waits for a Johnson mistake or picks a moment when it's best to rush him. If Dempsey can keep his hands free on the inside, stay low and move his head, he could frustrate Johnson to a points win or possible late stoppage. The longer it goes and the more it becomes a wrestling match, I favour Johnson tying him up on the inside and landing his trademark uppercuts. I think he'd lose most of the early rounds keeping Dempsey off of him but outworks him to a points victory.

Johnson vs Tunney could be an extreme battle of chess in the ring. Likely more boring because both men liked to counter and move. It all boils down to who presses the action. Wouldn't bet against Johnson doing a little more rough stuff and testing Gene's chin. Tunney could beat him, but he'd have to be at his very best to do it. I favour Johnson in 15 or late stoppage.

I think Louis out jabs, out works and out boxes Johnson for about 5 or 6 rounds with a workmanlike lead. Joe would be throwing more jabs and rights in combinations early. Johnson figures him out, and starts to land more frequently in the middle rounds. He takes command in th 11th and counters Joe to a points victory.

Marciano's best chances are with late power, consistent body work and lots of pressure. He's not going to win an outside war with Johnson but he could do considerable damage on the inside. If the Rock can get to Jack's body early and keep it close, I favour him. Only thing is I can't see Johnson not being able to counter Marciano coming forward at him. Johnson wins on points.

Last edited by round15; 08-23-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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