Dempsey vs Wills with a twist - Page 2

lufcrazy · 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

He said he was peak against Jeffries though, so I'm not sure he was deteriated that much. If he was fighting Langford he'd probably make an effort to be in shape too

In a reality where there is no colour bar, Johnson also doesn't get run out the country and is quite possibly a more active champion

that's why I said years after Jeffries. Against James he was in his absolute peak condition, I do believe that.

Maybe he'd make an effort for Langford, maybe not. it's ahrd to say. But Langford was definitely beating better opposition during these years (1911-1915)

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM

Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 09:21 AM

Then again, maybe with no colour line, Jeffries thrashes Johnson in 1905 and Johnson is eliminated!

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 09:27 AM

Johnson loved the high life of course, so he may have started to slip regardless. But the enormous stress placed upon him and his migrant lifestyle were obviously factors. I wonder if it's possible he reigns until Wills is ready for him or even beyond?

lufcrazy · 08-24-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.

1918 by my reckoning was when he found his form.

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 09:58 AM

1904: Jeffries beats Johnson then retires.
1905: Marin Hart beats Jack Root
1906: Jack Johnson beats Hart (after eliminating Burns)
1907: Jack Johnson beats Jeanette
1908: Jack Johnson beats McVey
1909: Jack Johnson beats Sam Langford
1910: Jack Johnson beats Joe Jeanette
1911: Jack Johnson beats Stanley Ketchel

Who or what am I missing?

lufcrazy · 08-24-2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

1904: Jeffries beats Johnson then retires.

1905: Jack Johnson beats Hart (after eliminating Burns)
1907: Jack Johnson beats Jeanette
1908: Jack Johnson beats McVey
1909: Jack Johnson beats Sam Langford
1910: Jack Johnson beats Joe Jeanette
1911: Jack Johnson beats Stanley Ketchel

Who or what am I missing?

I don't think Hart is ever champ.

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I don't think Hart is ever champ.

Who do you think Jeffries would name?

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 10:22 AM

You know what I think? I think maybe Dempsey and Wills might not fight for the title anyway. An eliminator looks more likley to me right now.

Who thinks maybe Jeffries would stick around long enough to shut Munro's trap anyway and a new champion isn't crowned until 1906? Maybe then it would be someone other than Root and Hart.

PowerPuncher · 08-24-2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.

Wills was beating Langford in 1914 and flew out to Cuba to challenge the winner of Willard-Johnson to be told he wasn't aloud too

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Wills was beating Langford in 1914 and flew out to Cuba to challenge the winner of Willard-Johnson to be told he wasn't aloud too

Mmmmm, well yeah, but he lost a strange one in twelve, had only been a pro three years and looked pretty vulnerable versus the best at the end of 1914. In '13 he made a couple of draws. Maybe it was right they told him no? Maybe the original dynamite crew is positioned for a second run at the title? But I ain't even got that far yet.

For sure, Wills lifting the title before Dempsey goes on his KO run to the title would be tidy.

But Wills went 2-2-2 in fights confirmed as scheduled for more than 10 rounds in 1914 and failed to beat Langford, Jeanette and McVey (0-2-2), according to Boxrec. This is not contender form I don't think.

janitor · 08-24-2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

For sure, Wills lifting the title before Dempsey goes on his KO run to the title would be tidy.

But Wills went 2-2-2 in fights confirmed as scheduled for more than 10 rounds in 1914 and failed to beat Langford, Jeanette and McVey (0-2-2), according to Boxrec. This is not contender form I don't think.

The counter argument to that would be that Wills like all the black contenders, was forced to fight ridiculous schedules under very unfavourable circumstances.

Without the colour bar he would undoubtedly have been more judicious in choosing his fights. Having beaten Langford twice or gone 2-1 against him, he would have left it at that, and gone after weaker contenders who would enhance his title credentials.

What is very telling, is the way that some white contenders got dragged into the whole black dynamite meat grinder. Sandy Ferguson was viewed by many as the heir to Jeffries throne, had arguably bested Mavin Hart, then his gambling problems forced him to take fights with Johnson et al, and he was soon seen as a second ratter!

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 05:57 PM

Unless i'm missing something, Wills is 0-1-1 against Langford at the end of 1914. It would be 1916 before he would take a lead against Sam - maybe Sam would wave goodbye to him before that, seeing it your way?

If there's a counter-argument it's that Wills wouldn't be drawn into a series with Langford this early in his career.

But not everyone can be perfectly promoted just because there is no colour line.

lufcrazy · 08-24-2012, 06:18 PM

With no colour line jeffries and johnson unify the championship claims.

If james wins I think he decrees the winner of johnson's next fight as champion.
A lot of times throughout history, the last challenger of the old lineage is the first challenger of a new lineage. That likelihood seems more than any other imo.

McGrain · 08-24-2012, 06:24 PM

I just don't think that Johnson and Jeffries would ever get along well enough for Jim to name him - and after he beats him up he wouldn't be all that acceptable as a championship contender in that era, I don't think.

I think he'd name the same dudes. But you never know.

08-24-2012, 09:17 AM	#17
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that. I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him. Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.
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08-24-2012, 09:21 AM	#18
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist Then again, maybe with no colour line, Jeffries thrashes Johnson in 1905 and Johnson is eliminated!
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08-24-2012, 09:27 AM	#19
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist Johnson loved the high life of course, so he may have started to slip regardless. But the enormous stress placed upon him and his migrant lifestyle were obviously factors. I wonder if it's possible he reigns until Wills is ready for him or even beyond?
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08-24-2012, 09:58 AM	#21
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist 1904: Jeffries beats Johnson then retires. 1905: Marin Hart beats Jack Root 1906: Jack Johnson beats Hart (after eliminating Burns) 1907: Jack Johnson beats Jeanette 1908: Jack Johnson beats McVey 1909: Jack Johnson beats Sam Langford 1910: Jack Johnson beats Joe Jeanette 1911: Jack Johnson beats Stanley Ketchel Who or what am I missing?
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08-24-2012, 10:22 AM	#24
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist You know what I think? I think maybe Dempsey and Wills might not fight for the title anyway. An eliminator looks more likley to me right now. Who thinks maybe Jeffries would stick around long enough to shut Munro's trap anyway and a new champion isn't crowned until 1906? Maybe then it would be someone other than Root and Hart.
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08-24-2012, 05:57 PM	#28
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist Unless i'm missing something, Wills is 0-1-1 against Langford at the end of 1914. It would be 1916 before he would take a lead against Sam - maybe Sam would wave goodbye to him before that, seeing it your way? If there's a counter-argument it's that Wills wouldn't be drawn into a series with Langford this early in his career. But not everyone can be perfectly promoted just because there is no colour line.
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08-24-2012, 06:18 PM	#29
lufcrazy requiescat in pace East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: England, Up North Posts: 22,448 vCash: 330	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist With no colour line jeffries and johnson unify the championship claims. If james wins I think he decrees the winner of johnson's next fight as champion. A lot of times throughout history, the last challenger of the old lineage is the first challenger of a new lineage. That likelihood seems more than any other imo.
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08-24-2012, 06:24 PM	#30
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist I just don't think that Johnson and Jeffries would ever get along well enough for Jim to name him - and after he beats him up he wouldn't be all that acceptable as a championship contender in that era, I don't think. I think he'd name the same dudes. But you never know.
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