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Old 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
He said he was peak against Jeffries though, so I'm not sure he was deteriated that much. If he was fighting Langford he'd probably make an effort to be in shape too

In a reality where there is no colour bar, Johnson also doesn't get run out the country and is quite possibly a more active champion
that's why I said years after Jeffries. Against James he was in his absolute peak condition, I do believe that.

Maybe he'd make an effort for Langford, maybe not. it's ahrd to say. But Langford was definitely beating better opposition during these years (1911-1915)
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:21 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

Then again, maybe with no colour line, Jeffries thrashes Johnson in 1905 and Johnson is eliminated!
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

Johnson loved the high life of course, so he may have started to slip regardless. But the enormous stress placed upon him and his migrant lifestyle were obviously factors. I wonder if it's possible he reigns until Wills is ready for him or even beyond?
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.
1918 by my reckoning was when he found his form.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:58 AM   #21
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

1904: Jeffries beats Johnson then retires.
1905: Marin Hart beats Jack Root
1906: Jack Johnson beats Hart (after eliminating Burns)
1907: Jack Johnson beats Jeanette
1908: Jack Johnson beats McVey
1909: Jack Johnson beats Sam Langford
1910: Jack Johnson beats Joe Jeanette
1911: Jack Johnson beats Stanley Ketchel

Who or what am I missing?
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:11 AM   #22
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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1904: Jeffries beats Johnson then retires.

1905: Jack Johnson beats Hart (after eliminating Burns)
1907: Jack Johnson beats Jeanette
1908: Jack Johnson beats McVey
1909: Jack Johnson beats Sam Langford
1910: Jack Johnson beats Joe Jeanette
1911: Jack Johnson beats Stanley Ketchel

Who or what am I missing?
I don't think Hart is ever champ.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:12 AM   #23
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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I don't think Hart is ever champ.
Who do you think Jeffries would name?
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

You know what I think? I think maybe Dempsey and Wills might not fight for the title anyway. An eliminator looks more likley to me right now.

Who thinks maybe Jeffries would stick around long enough to shut Munro's trap anyway and a new champion isn't crowned until 1906? Maybe then it would be someone other than Root and Hart.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:24 AM   #25
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, I agree. With no colour line, Willard likely doesn't even turn pro...Wills wan't the real deal by my reckoning until just before Dempsey became the champ (maybe a year or so before) but i'm prepared to be corrected on that.

I think Langford would have been Johnson's #1 contender at some point when he started to slip, and once he started to slip it is likely that Langford would have beaten him.

Of course, it's not so simple. Maybe Johnson would have matched Langford instead of Jeffries (who likely wouldn't have come out of retirement) in 1910 and rinsed him bad. That might have eliminated him all together.
Wills was beating Langford in 1914 and flew out to Cuba to challenge the winner of Willard-Johnson to be told he wasn't aloud too
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:28 AM   #26
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Wills was beating Langford in 1914 and flew out to Cuba to challenge the winner of Willard-Johnson to be told he wasn't aloud too
Mmmmm, well yeah, but he lost a strange one in twelve, had only been a pro three years and looked pretty vulnerable versus the best at the end of 1914. In '13 he made a couple of draws. Maybe it was right they told him no? Maybe the original dynamite crew is positioned for a second run at the title? But I ain't even got that far yet.

For sure, Wills lifting the title before Dempsey goes on his KO run to the title would be tidy.

But Wills went 2-2-2 in fights confirmed as scheduled for more than 10 rounds in 1914 and failed to beat Langford, Jeanette and McVey (0-2-2), according to Boxrec. This is not contender form I don't think.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #27
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

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For sure, Wills lifting the title before Dempsey goes on his KO run to the title would be tidy.

But Wills went 2-2-2 in fights confirmed as scheduled for more than 10 rounds in 1914 and failed to beat Langford, Jeanette and McVey (0-2-2), according to Boxrec. This is not contender form I don't think.
The counter argument to that would be that Wills like all the black contenders, was forced to fight ridiculous schedules under very unfavourable circumstances.

Without the colour bar he would undoubtedly have been more judicious in choosing his fights. Having beaten Langford twice or gone 2-1 against him, he would have left it at that, and gone after weaker contenders who would enhance his title credentials.

What is very telling, is the way that some white contenders got dragged into the whole black dynamite meat grinder. Sandy Ferguson was viewed by many as the heir to Jeffries throne, had arguably bested Mavin Hart, then his gambling problems forced him to take fights with Johnson et al, and he was soon seen as a second ratter!
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

Unless i'm missing something, Wills is 0-1-1 against Langford at the end of 1914. It would be 1916 before he would take a lead against Sam - maybe Sam would wave goodbye to him before that, seeing it your way?

If there's a counter-argument it's that Wills wouldn't be drawn into a series with Langford this early in his career.

But not everyone can be perfectly promoted just because there is no colour line.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

With no colour line jeffries and johnson unify the championship claims.

If james wins I think he decrees the winner of johnson's next fight as champion.
A lot of times throughout history, the last challenger of the old lineage is the first challenger of a new lineage. That likelihood seems more than any other imo.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dempsey vs Wills with a twist

I just don't think that Johnson and Jeffries would ever get along well enough for Jim to name him - and after he beats him up he wouldn't be all that acceptable as a championship contender in that era, I don't think.

I think he'd name the same dudes. But you never know.
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