Linear heavyweight champions and being the best in the world.

[Stevie G]

Sometimes the linear heavyweight champion has genuinely been the best heavy in the world,and other times not. Here's a breakdown of each category,in my opinion.


Best in the world at the time of winning the championship -

John L. Sullivan
Jim Corbett
Jim Jeffries
Bob Fitzimmons
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmelling
Jack Sharkey
Max Baer
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson (first time)
Sonny Liston
Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali (first time)
Joe Frazier
George Foreman (first time) **
Muhammad Ali (second time)
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (first time)
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield (second time)
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

** Even though it could be argued that Muhammad Ali could have beaten Foreman at the time George beat Frazier,Foreman still deserves the merit as he beat Frazier so emphatically.


























NOT best in the world at time of winning the championship




Marvin Hart
Tommy Burns
Jess Willard
Primo Carnera
Jimmy Braddock
Ingemar Johansson
Floyd Patterson (second time)
Leon Spinks
Muhammad Ali (third time)
Michael Spinks
James 'Buster' Douglas
Michael Moorer
George Foreman (second time)
Shannon Briggs
Hasim Rahman

Don't think I've missed anyone out !

[lufcrazy]

By and large I agree.

Willard beating Johnson is one i'm unsure about the more I consider it. It could be argued the coloured championship > world championship up until dempsey flattened willard.

Baer and Tyson were both unquestionably the best hw's in the world when they were defeated so i'd class their conquer as the best.

Ingo sparked machen and then floyd, he was clearly the best. Very few men have demolished the top contender and then the champ with such ease.

[McGrain]

It's an interesting topic. I mean Rahman isn't the best HW in the world after he knocks Lewis the fuck out because Lewis is?

Does not compute. But yeah.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

By and large I agree.

Willard beating Johnson is one i'm unsure about the more I consider it. It could be argued the coloured championship > world championship up until dempsey flattened willard.

Baer and Tyson were both unquestionably the best hw's in the world when they were defeated so i'd class their conquer as the best.

Ingo sparked machen and then floyd, he was clearly the best. Very few men have demolished the top contender and then the champ with such ease.

Good points ! I think,though,that Sonny Liston may have already been the world's best when Ingo beat Floyd.

[Webbiano]

I can't wait to here something along the lines of Mcvey and Langford where better than Johnson and would have beat.

I'd certainly disagree with ingo (like lufcrazy). I'd also argue that maybe Marciano was better than Walcott at the time of Walcott-Charles III or IV

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Good points ! I think,though,that Sonny Liston may have already been the world's best when Ingo beat Floyd.

I did think that myself, but it'd be based on hypothetical talent and since the two never fought it's too much of a leap of faith. Ingo smashed Machen to take number 1 spot (so he was a higher ranked contender) then he smashed Floyd to take the championship. I'm happy with him being above him.

As for Willard, Had it been as simple as Wills knocking out Same and then not losing again until Sharkey I'd probably go along with it but basically by 1915 Langford-McVey-Jeannette-B Johnson were all losing to each other and Wills didn't really begin his great streak for a couple more years when he beat Langford in 1918 and didn't lose again for many years. So I'd probably keep willard on top.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by McGrain

It's an interesting topic. I mean Rahman isn't the best HW in the world after he knocks Lewis the fuck out because Lewis is?

Does not compute. But yeah.

My rationale on Lewis-Rahman I is that if Lennox took the fight seriously,he'd have done to Rahman what he accomplished in their second fight. Debatable though.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

My rationale on Lewis-Rahman I is that if Lennox took the fight seriously,he'd have done to Rahman what he accomplished in their second fight. Debatable though.

This is how I see it Stevie. With hindsight on our sides, I don't think it's debatable.

[lufcrazy]

No rahman knocked lewis spark out. His place as top hw is concrete imo.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Sometimes the linear heavyweight champion has genuinely been the best heavy in the world,and other times not. Here's a breakdown of each category,in my opinion.


Best in the world at the time of winning the championship -

John L. Sullivan
Jim Corbett
Jim Jeffries
Bob Fitzimmons
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney
Max Schmelling
Jack Sharkey
Max Baer
Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Rocky Marciano
Floyd Patterson (first time)
Sonny Liston
Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali (first time)
Joe Frazier
George Foreman (first time) **
Muhammad Ali (second time)
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (first time)
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield (second time)
Lennox Lewis
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

** Even though it could be argued that Muhammad Ali could have beaten Foreman at the time George beat Frazier,Foreman still deserves the merit as he beat Frazier so emphatically.

Prety on the money.

It could be argued that Peter Jackon was the best heavyweight in the world when Corbett won he title.

Jack Sharkey was the best in the world when Max Schmeling won the title, and ironicaly, Schmeling was better by the time Sharkey won the title.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

I can't wait to here something along the lines of Mcvey and Langford where better than Johnson and would have beat.

Johnson was certainly better when he won the title, but what you don't seem to get your head around, is the matter that he declined dramaticaly after the Jeffries fight.

[Longhhorn71]

Why is Jimmy Ellis left out...Ali wasn't even fighting at that time Ellis won the title....and Frazier realized this, and refused to participate in the tourney.

Plus, Liston wasn't even asked to the Tourney.... most people thought he could beat all of them (with Ali retired).

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Why is Jimmy Ellis left out...Ali wasn't even fighting at that time Ellis won the title....and Frazier realized this, and refused to participate in the tourney.

Plus, Liston wasn't even asked to the Tourney most people..... thought he could beat all of them (with Ali retired).

Ellis < Frazier infact
Ellis < Floyd

[Longhhorn71]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Ellis < Frazier infact
Ellis < Floyd

Ellis beat Floyd (fact) .....Frazier ducked 8 fighters (Durham "We will fight the winner"), plus Liston, who Durham wanted no part of.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Ellis beat Floyd (fact) .....Frazier ducked 8 fighters (Durham "We will fight the winner"), plus Liston who Durham wanted no part of.

Have you seen the ellis and floyd fight?

And frazier didn't duck them, he did indeed fight the winner and did indeed knock him spark out.

Liston? Meh after his shambolic losing efforts to ali i'm not surprised he never got a shot at anyone again.