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Old 09-02-2012, 04:43 PM   #61
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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I think the could/would argument is a double edgted sword in this context. If you place a lot of value on did, then Willard is the only guy who actualy did beat Johnson. The argument against him seems to hang on the hypothetical, that others would also have beaten Johnson.



Willard was an exceptional talent in one respect.

He cold outlast prety much anybody.

Smith might have been a better fighter, but he would never have beaten Johnson.
I'm not arguing against him, I give him credit for beating a faded star. However to compromise with could/would we can discuss favourites to victory but even that is a funny one because noone would have been a favourite over Johnson, but with the use of hindsight I can say I'd make Black Dynamite, Smith and Fulton favourites over the 1915 Johnson.

Outlasting pretty much anybody? on what do you base that statement?
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:00 PM   #62
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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I'm not arguing against him, I give him credit for beating a faded star. However to compromise with could/would we can discuss favourites to victory but even that is a funny one because noone would have been a favourite over Johnson, but with the use of hindsight I can say I'd make Black Dynamite, Smith and Fulton favourites over the 1915 Johnson.
I could understand your argument with respect to some of the black dynamite cew, but you are dead wrong on Smith and Fulton.

There is a reason why Smith did not accept a title fight with Johnson. He wa geting used as a punch bag in sparring, and he knew that an actual fight would be the same.

Fulton was green in 1915, if he could ever have been up to the task.

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Outlasting pretty much anybody? on what do you base that statement?
The Johnson fight.

Jonson wanted an early night, and threw everything he had at Willard, and Willard just absorbed it.

Remember that Johnson stopped prety much everybody he fought at least once, and usualy in less than 20 rounds.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #63
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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I could understand your argument with respect to some of the black dynamite cew, but you are dead wrong on Smith and Fulton.

There is a reason why Smith did not accept a title fight with Johnson. He wa geting used as a punch bag in sparring, and he knew that an actual fight would be the same.

Fulton was green in 1915, if he could ever have been up to the task.



The Johnson fight.

Jonson wanted an early night, and threw everything he had at Willard, and Willard just absorbed it.

Remember that Johnson stopped prety much everybody he fought at least once, and usualy in less than 20 rounds.
so I'm wrong in saying I'd expect those to beat him? you're definitely wrong in saying that since I do make them favourites over 1915 Johnson.

A better version failed to stop Moran as well. let's declare him one of the more durable hw's in history. In the 5 years preceding he'd only stopped a shot Flynn and a shot Jeffries. I don't buy into Willard's super-human durability.

He certainly couldn't outlast Dempsey, Firpo nor Cox.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:25 PM   #64
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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so I'm wrong in saying I'd expect those to beat him? you're definitely wrong in saying that since I do make them favourites over 1915 Johnson.
Some of your picks are right, and others are wrong IMHO.

The reality we have to work round, is that none baet him.

Quote:
A better version failed to stop Moran as well. let's declare him one of the more durable hw's in history. In the 5 years preceding he'd only stopped a shot Flynn and a shot Jeffries. I don't buy into Willard's super-human durability.
Johnson was a defensive fighter who usualy let his opponents finish on heir feet, but if he decided to go after you, then you were getting knocked out.

Quote:
He certainly couldn't outlast Dempsey, Firpo nor Cox.
Dempsey was, well Dempsey.

Willard was a shell when he fought Firpo.

The circumstances in the Cox fight are plain to see.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:29 PM   #65
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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so I'm wrong in saying I'd expect those to beat him? you're definitely wrong in saying that since I do make them favourites over 1915 Johnson.

A better version failed to stop Moran as well. let's declare him one of the more durable hw's in history. In the 5 years preceding he'd only stopped a shot Flynn and a shot Jeffries. I don't buy into Willard's super-human durability.

He certainly couldn't outlast Dempsey, Firpo nor Cox.
"only stopped a shot Flynn"

Except Flynn was on his feet arguing with the ref when the sheriff stopped the fight. Flynn didn't appear in trouble off the film at all, but was billygoating Johnson just before the fight was stopped. It looked more like Flynn was DQ'd.

Whatever, the bottom line that this fight if no proof Johnson still had a punch.

He really hadn't stopped anyone since the Jeffries fight.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:33 PM   #66
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He really hadn't stopped anyone since the Jeffries fight.
And Jeffries was so easy to stop right?
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:38 PM   #67
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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Quote:

Some of your picks are right, and others are wrong IMHO.

The reality we have to work round, is that none baet him.



Johnson was a defensive fighter who usualy let his opponents finish on heir feet, but if he decided to go after you, then you were getting knocked out.



Dempsey was, well Dempsey.

Willard was a shell when he fought Firpo.

The circumstances in the Cox fight are plain to see.
there is no right or wrong, it's hypothetical. there's only personal choice as to who you'd favour. The reality is he drew the colour line and was aging and inactive, not many got chance to beat the declined version, just Moran, Johnson, Flynn and Willard none of whom he could knock out.

Dempsey was Dempsey? Dempsey was 60 pounds smaller than Willard and had been flattened in a round by Flynn previously, hardly an airtight argument. Willard was coming off a victory over F Johnson, arguably one of the best of his career. He quit on his stool vs cox.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:38 PM   #68
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

On Dempsey, Firpo, and Cox

Willard was stopped 3 times in 34 fights, not a particularly good ratio. Dempsey and Firpo could punch, and they got Willard old,

but it is also fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Willard had all that strong a chin.

Decent certainly, but one of the best?--no evidence in his record.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #69
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And Jeffries was so easy to stop right?

I wouldn't call him easy to stop, but he had laid off 6 years and was 35.

No one else tested his chin.


*I do remember reading a report by Eddie Muller in the SF Examiner after Jeff died that Muller had seen a photo of Jeffries on the floor with Bob Armstrong standing over him. Armstrong had knocked Jeffries down in a secret sparring session in 1910. Rickard supposedly paid the photographer for the photo and suppressed it so it would not hurt the gate.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:22 AM   #70
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
on dempsey, firpo, and cox

willard was stopped 3 times in 34 fights, not a particularly good ratio. Dempsey and firpo could punch, and they got willard old,

but it is also fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that willard had all that strong a chin.

Decent certainly, but one of the best?--no evidence in his record.
against dempsey - willard was 37 years old. Willard was in his forties when he fought the powerful firpo. Firpo did not
have much ring finesse, but he could punch!!!

Against both dempsey and firpo, willard was hit numerous times before he succumbed.

The cox fight is an interesting topic. More on that later.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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I would say Luther McCarthy, which is a prety good scalp.
Not really, possibly the worst second best win of any lineal champion? You'll struggle to find worse
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:18 AM   #72
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
On Dempsey, Firpo, and Cox

Willard was stopped 3 times in 34 fights, not a particularly good ratio. Dempsey and Firpo could punch, and they got Willard old,

but it is also fair to say that there is no compelling evidence that Willard had all that strong a chin.

Decent certainly, but one of the best?--no evidence in his record.
Willard had a terrific chin and heart ... to debate this is absurd. He got crushed by a prime Dempsey as an old, inactive man but he not only kept getting up but actually put up a decent fight in the second and third rounds when injury, age and inactivity all caught up with him ... if they did not fight under the ambush rules of that ear who knows how the fight may have turned out ... against Firpo, another monster puncher the forty plus Willard was simply caught .. as far as the Cox fight goes it means nothing ... Willard was essentially an amateur , in his eight fight, amateur and pro and was over matched.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:52 AM   #73
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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Willard had a terrific chin and heart ... to debate this is absurd. He got crushed by a prime Dempsey as an old, inactive man but he not only kept getting up but actually put up a decent fight in the second and third rounds when injury, age and inactivity all caught up with him ... if they did not fight under the ambush rules of that ear who knows how the fight may have turned out ... against Firpo, another monster puncher the forty plus Willard was simply caught .. as far as the Cox fight goes it means nothing ... Willard was essentially an amateur , in his eight fight, amateur and pro and was over matched.
Against whom did he prove this terrific chin and heart?
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: A defence of Jess Willard

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Against whom did he prove this terrific chin and heart?
I think he proved his chin against Gun Boat Smith,and his heart against Dempsey, and Johnson where he took a pretty good going over for the first 15 rds,and Firpo ,when an old man for the ring , he took some right handers before running out of gas.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:31 PM   #75
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I think he proved his chin against Gun Boat Smith,and his heart against Dempsey, and Johnson where he took a pretty good going over for the first 15 rds,and Firpo ,when an old man for the ring , he took some right handers before running out of gas.
I've not seen the fight with Gunboat so I'm unsure how much his chin was tested.

Heart I'll buy into, he was brave against the mauler.

But chin, I've no reason to put his durability in the upper echelon's of the sport. I'd certainly rank it behind Valuev anyways.
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