Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by MMJoe

Louis had no noteworthy wins after Walcott.

None of those fights are listed among his title fights either.

[frankenfrank]

Chavez >> Louis .
Louis' title defenses were almost exclusively vs bums .
And who knows how many of his fights were worked .
Louis was KOd by past his prime Schmelling FFS .

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by MMJoe

Louis had no noteworthy wins after Walcott.

Not b4 either

[MMJoe]

Chavez longest winning streak, 87 in a row
Louis longest winning streak, 34 in a row

[MMJoe]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

None of those fights are listed among his title fights either.

So

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by MMJoe

So

I'm saying the title statistics are rather misleading considering that Chavez was hardly the best in his division from 1994 onwards.

[MMJoe]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

I'm saying the title statistics are rather misleading considering that Chavez was hardly the best in his division from 1994 onwards.

Aw come on! You really going to split hairs on Chavez official stats? I'll just use the reasoning you are using on Chavez record and use the same resoning on Louis record.
You have about 10 of Louis title challangers who are very pretty iffy as world ranked fighters. I'll just use the reasoning you are using on Chavez record and use the same reasoning on Louis record. I'll drop off the 10 bums off of Louis title defense record and count his title total title defenses as 15-0 then.
So you're going to second-guess the stats on one fighter record and take the other fights stats as gospel to prove your point?
This tactic of yours tells me you don't have any confidence in arguing your position.

[SuzieQ49]

Louis Lucky against Walcott? That was one of the best fight finishing combinations ever thrown before by a champion. Louis was 34 years old, past his prime in 1948, and defeated a prime top 20 ATG heavyweight by knockout.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by MMJoe

Aw come on! You really going to split hairs on Chavez official stats? I'll just use the reasoning you are using on Chavez record and use the same resoning on Louis record.
You have about 10 of Louis title challangers who are very pretty iffy as world ranked fighters. I'll just use the reasoning you are using on Chavez record and use the same reasoning on Louis record. I'll drop off the 10 bums off of Louis title defense record and count his title total title defenses as 15-0 then.
So you're going to second-guess the stats on one fighter record and take the other fights stats as gospel to prove your point?
This tactic of yours tells me you don't have any confidence in arguing your position.

I think I've already stated the definite facts that argue against Chavez's statistics. The argument that Chavez did not truly reign as a champion from 1994 onwards, which he didn't (The Ring Magazine for example never again had him as the number 1) is only a follow-up to what facts I had already laid down earlier without a response to them.

First of all trying to argue that one fighter is better than the other based on mere statistics is foolish enough, secondly the comparison is hardly fair as Chavez was not the "man" for a period of time during his "reign" and many of the "title" opponents that he fought were certainly not recognized as the true champions in their divisions at any single point in their careers.

The same cannot be said for Louis's time, when there was only one single belt around. Try and dig up how many opponents Chavez beat that were recognized as the best in their divisions at some point in their careers, and you'll most likely not end up with a number greater than Louis's. This despite Chavez campaigning from super featherweight up to welterweight while Louis only conceivably had two different divisions to pick opponents from.

Both of them fought their share of below average opponents, certainly Chavez more so than Louis, it's better we focus on the quality of opposition they faced.

[FastHands(beeb)]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

I think I've already stated the definite facts that argue against Chavez's statistics. The argument that Chavez did not truly reign as a champion from 1994 onwards, which he didn't (The Ring Magazine for example never again had him as the number 1) is only a follow-up to what facts I had already laid down earlier without a response to them.

First of all trying to argue that one fighter is better than the other based on mere statistics is foolish enough, secondly the comparison is hardly fair as Chavez was not the "man" for a period of time during his "reign" and many of the "title" opponents that he fought were certainly not recognized as the true champions in their divisions at any single point in their careers.

The same cannot be said for Louis's time, when there was only one single belt around. Try and dig up how many opponents Chavez beat that were recognized as the best in their divisions at some point in their careers, and you'll most likely not end up with a number greater than Louis's.

TheGreatA, I think you are wasting your time here, MMJoe's (and Fraknenfrank's) minds are already made up on this, there is nothing you can do to change it.

I am reminded of the old saying "thereare lies, damned lies, and statistics...".

Or another..."my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the truth...".

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by FastHands(beeb)

TheGreatA, I think you are wasting your time here, MMJoe's (and Fraknenfrank's) minds are already made up on this, there is nothing you can do to change it.

I am reminded of the old saying "thereare lies, damned lies, and statistics...".

Or another..."my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the truth...".

As an example Joe Louis most certainly fought more Hall of Famers than Chavez ever did, which again is another misleading statistic as heavyweights have often been more likely to receive the honour than smaller, more under-appreciated fighters although in truth Louis did probably fight more memorable opponents than Chavez.

The statistics alone do not have enough merit, otherwise we would be crowning boxers like [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] as legends. In order to get to the bottom of it you must know extensively about the era and its fighters as well as their abilities, which you won't by merely looking up their given records. I won't say that there is no argument to rate Chavez above Louis but if there is an argument then pointing towards his record alone is not it. Neither should Louis automatically be considered the greatest heavyweight due to his record title defenses.

[the cobra]

I do think Chavez was probably the better fighter. As in, if they were the same size, I might pick him.

Joe was greater all things considered though, but not by some massive distance. 10 spots or so on my list.

[FastHands(beeb)]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

As an example Joe Louis most certainly fought more Hall of Famers than Chavez ever did, which again is another misleading statistic as heavyweights have often been more likely to receive the honour than smaller, more under-appreciated fighters although in truth Louis did probably fight more memorable opponents than Chavez.

The statistics alone do not have enough merit, otherwise we would be crowning boxers like [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] as legends. In order to get to the bottom of it you must know extensively about the era and its fighters as well as their abilities, which you won't by merely looking up their given records. I won't say that there is no argument to rate Chavez above Louis but if there is an argument then pointing towards his record alone is not it. Neither should Louis automatically be considered the greatest heavyweight due to his record title defenses.

I agree with all you say here TheGreatA.

My own view is that Louis is a greater fighter than Chavez although not for statistical reasons; I also consider Louis the greatest heavyweight, though again not for statistical reasons!

[MMJoe]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

I think I've already stated the definite facts that argue against Chavez's statistics. The argument that Chavez did not truly reign as a champion from 1994 onwards, which he didn't (The Ring Magazine for example never again had him as the number 1) is only a follow-up to what facts I had already laid down earlier without a response to them.

First of all trying to argue that one fighter is better than the other based on mere statistics is foolish enough, secondly the comparison is hardly fair as Chavez was not the "man" for a period of time during his "reign" and many of the "title" opponents that he fought were certainly not recognized as the true champions in their divisions at any single point in their careers.

The same cannot be said for Louis's time, when there was only one single belt around. Try and dig up how many opponents Chavez beat that were recognized as the best in their divisions at some point in their careers, and you'll most likely not end up with a number greater than Louis's. This despite Chavez campaigning from super featherweight up to welterweight while Louis only conceivably had two different divisions to pick opponents from.

Both of them fought their share of below average opponents, certainly Chavez more so than Louis, it's better we focus on the quality of opposition they faced.

There you go again thowing out Chavez stats to make your case. I guess old habits are hard to break. Two can play at this game muchacha.
Louis only defended his title against 16 guys who were top ten rated at the time. Now that I've eliminated the chaff from Louis challangers. He only has 16 title defenses as far as I'm concerned.
Now Chavez (even with his last 4 defenses erased, as you wanted) still surpasses him and so does Wlad Klit, Muhammad Ali & Larry Holmes.
Your turn to tinker with the stats again, no go ahead, I insist. However as far as I'm concerned for the rest of this thread Joe Louis had 16 title defenses and that it.

[burt bienstock]

Joe Louis was without a doubt greater than JC Chavez...Joe Louis is most likely the MOST dominating heavyweight ever. He held the championship for 13 years ,and was so feared by almost all his opposition. And he is considered by any rational boxing historian
as the greatest all around puncher ever in boxing and the top 3 in his division...
Chavez though a great LW in not in the top 5 greatest by all acounts....
P.S. sure Louis fought some stiffs in his time, but a man can only fight fighters of his
generation. No more, no less...