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Old 09-05-2012, 04:43 PM   #31
TheGreatA
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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There you go again thowing out Chavez stats to make your case. I guess old habits are hard to break. Two can play at this game muchacha.
Louis only defended his title against 16 guys who were top ten rated at the time. Now that I've eliminated the chaff from Louis challangers. He only has 16 title defenses as far as I'm concerned.
Now Chavez (even with his last 4 defenses erased, as you wanted) still surpasses him and so does Wlad Klit, Muhammad Ali & Larry Holmes.
Your turn to tinker with the stats again, no go ahead, I insist. However as far as I'm concerned for the rest of this thread Joe Louis had 16 title defenses and that it.
Are you saying that Chavez defended his title against 16 opponents who were ranked in the top 10?

Ruben Castillo
Roger Mayweather
Refugio Rojas
Rocky Lockridge
Juan Laporte
Jose Luis Ramirez
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor
John Duplessis
Angel Hernandez
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Terrence Alli

These were the top 10 ranked men that Chavez defended his title against, many of them not even ranked at the time he fought them, several were fringe contenders barely making the top 10. According to my count that makes 13. Who else?

And again I was never arguing for quantity or statistics, I was arguing for quality. You're missing the point.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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Joe Louis was without a doubt greater than JC Chavez...Joe Louis is most likely the MOST dominating heavyweight ever. He held the championship for 13 years ,and was so feared by almost all his opposition. And he is considered by any rational boxing historian
as the greatest all around puncher ever in boxing and the top 3 in his division...
Chavez though a great LW in not in the top 5 greatest by all acounts....
P.S. sure Louis fought some stiffs in his time, but a man can only fight fighters of his
generation. No more, no less...
13 years? No he didn't....Is there any facts you got right?

Chavez fought everyone, he ducked no one. All you said about Louis, the same thing goes for Julio, a man can only fight fighters of his generation.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Are you saying that Chavez defended his title against 16 opponents who were ranked in the top 10?

Ruben Castillo
Roger Mayweather
Refugio Rojas
Rocky Lockridge
Juan Laporte
Jose Luis Ramirez
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor
John Duplessis
Angel Hernandez
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Terrence Alli

These were the top 10 ranked men that Chavez defended his title against, many of them not even ranked at the time he fought them, several were fringe contenders barely making the top 10. According to my count that makes 13. Who else?

And again I was never arguing for quantity or statistics, I was arguing for quality. You're missing the point.
No, I'm not missing your point, you are missing my point.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:36 PM   #34
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Are you saying that Chavez defended his title against 16 opponents who were ranked in the top 10?

Ruben Castillo
Roger Mayweather
Refugio Rojas
Rocky Lockridge
Juan Laporte
Jose Luis Ramirez
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor
John Duplessis
Angel Hernandez
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Terrence Alli

These were the top 10 ranked men that Chavez defended his title against, many of them not even ranked at the time he fought them, several were fringe contenders barely making the top 10. According to my count that makes 13. Who else?

And again I was never arguing for quantity or statistics, I was arguing for quality. You're missing the point.
Lonnie Smith, Tony Lopez, David Kamau, Giovanni Parisi, and I'm pretty sure Oscar was ranked too at the time of their first bout.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Pure boxrec ****ysis from the OP. Again.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Chavez was technically DQ'd early on in his career. Only local bias and connections saw that overturned so in reality his winning streak should be much shorter.

They're both in the top 30 for me.

Chavez never faced anyone outweighing him as much as Louis did, which levels out their actual 'P4P achievements'.

I think it's unfair to get into a ****ing contest over two greats like this. Splitting hairs over the careers of these two isn't worth the time IMO.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:53 PM   #37
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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No, I'm not missing your point, you are missing my point.
What is the point? I'm saying you can't rate boxers by looking at the numbers alone.

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Originally Posted by Andrei00 View Post
Lonnie Smith, Tony Lopez, David Kamau, Giovanni Parisi, and I'm pretty sure Oscar was ranked too at the time of their first bout.
For purposes of discussion we left out the latter part of Chavez's reign as he was no longer considered the top fighter in his division. Louis never had the option to make title defenses without being the top fighter in his division as there was only one person worthy of holding a title. The likes of Lonnie Smith were also rated 6 years prior to Chavez fighting them.

Either way there's no distinctive difference to be made. It's not an argument I originally made, I simply don't understand what the thread starter is getting at here. Chavez's number of title defenses against ranked contenders hardly puts Louis to shame and Chavez had 4 different divisions to choose opponents from.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:55 PM   #38
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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Chavez was technically DQ'd early on in his career. Only local bias and connections saw that overturned so in reality his winning streak should be much shorter.

They're both in the top 30 for me.

Chavez never faced anyone outweighing him as much as Louis did, which levels out their actual 'P4P achievements'.

I think it's unfair to get into a ****ing contest over two greats like this. Splitting hairs over the careers of these two isn't worth the time IMO.
I'd say this is more of an argument about how to rate a fighter's greatness than it is an argument between Chavez and Louis, atleast from my point of view. The same statistics that have been used to prove Chavez's greatness over Louis can be used against nearly any fighter who ever lived. Nobody ever said that Chavez's record didn't look good, on paper. The substance though can be argued.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:58 PM   #39
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Oh, I'm not questioning you, just the agenda and ****ytical ability of the OP.

Who is a proven mong by the way. He has me on ignore, mainly because he's a complete re**** who never makes a valid point.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:11 PM   #40
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

I guess somebody had to take up the task.

Mainly I'm just trying to say that it's better to watch the fights and learn the game instead of talking numbers and statistics, even if it is inevitably a part of the argument to be made when it comes to a boxer's greatness. I don't have as much of a problem with the original point as I do about the way that it was made.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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For purposes of discussion we left out the latter part of Chavez's reign as he was no longer considered the top fighter in his division. Louis never had the option to make title defenses without being the top fighter in his division as there was only one person worthy of holding a title. The likes of Lonnie Smith were also rated 6 years prior to Chavez fighting them.

Either way there's no distinctive difference to be made. It's not an argument I originally made, I simply don't understand what the thread starter is getting at here. Chavez's number of title defenses against ranked contenders hardly puts Louis to shame and Chavez had 4 different divisions to choose opponents from.
Smith was considered the 10th welterweight in the same year they fought. Also, I'm not sure who would that top fighter in his division be, but I think you got me wrong here. I wasn't saying Chavez is greater than Louis, even though Julio is my 2nd favourite boxer all-time.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:18 PM   #42
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

2 elite ATGs.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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Smith was considered the 10th welterweight in the same year they fought. Also, I'm not sure who would that top fighter in his division be, but I think you got me wrong here. I wasn't saying Chavez is greater than Louis, even though Julio is my 2nd favourite boxer all-time.
After 1994, Tszyu and De La Hoya were considered the number 1 and 2 light welterweights in the world. Chavez was at best top 3.

I knew you were simply correcting (although I did purposefully leave those opponents out), I was talking about the thread starter's original point which was that Louis "only" defended his title against 16 ranked contenders. Didn't bother to double-check that number but either way Chavez hardly puts him to shame.

Another factor to be taken into account in arguments such as this are the different standards and rulesets of each era. The numbers alone won't convey that. There is no way to objectively measure the amount of title fights of a boxer who could only hope to contest for a single title in comparison to a boxer who could contest for four.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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13 years? No he didn't....Is there any facts you got right?

Chavez fought everyone, he ducked no one. All you said about Louis, the same thing goes for Julio, a man can only fight fighters of his generation.
Sir, don't try to distort the facts to win your argument...
1-YES Joe Louis won the HWT Title in 1937..He was the heavyweight champion til he lost the title to Ezzard Charles in 1950...It doesn;t take a mathemetician to come to THIRTEEN years Louis held the title !!!
2-Yes Chavez fought everyone of HIS time...He was one of my favorite "modern" lightweights, but he didn't hold the crown even close to 13 years
and today he is not regarded in the top 5 great lightweights of alltime as the immortal Joe Louis was as a heavyweight destroyer...So MM it is so kind of you to say "is there any FACTS I got right "?...You should direct your question to YOURSELF, instead of me...
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:24 PM   #45
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Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

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I count it as a draw.
Do you ACTUALLY think it was a draw?
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