Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-05-2012, 07:25 PM   #46
KuRuPT
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,860
vCash: 500
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Chavez is going to win the battle of statistics against nearly everybody because that's what his career was largely built on, a statistic.

It's not difficult to understand why he had more title fights than Louis considering that every high profile fight since the 1980's has been contested for some type of a title. Doesn't mean that the people contesting for it were anything close to being the best in the division.

Having a record of 12-3 against title holders in Louis's era was amazing (you only had one belt to contest for and only two different divisions that Louis could compete against), having a record of 17-4 against the likes of Sammy Fuentes and Lonnie Smith is fair enough but his record against men who were recognized as the best in their divisions at some point in time is definitely a lesser statistic.

Chavez's title reign was not continous and extremely questionable after 1993. Quite frankly he did not deserve to hold any kind of a belt from that point onwards.
Let's not act like Joe's competition was stellar during his title reign.. it wasn't... No fault of his own but it really wasn't.
KuRuPT is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-05-2012, 11:31 PM   #47
MMJoe
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,787
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
What is the point? I'm saying you can't rate boxers by looking at the numbers alone.



For purposes of discussion we left out the latter part of Chavez's reign as he was no longer considered the top fighter in his division. Louis never had the option to make title defenses without being the top fighter in his division as there was only one person worthy of holding a title. The likes of Lonnie Smith were also rated 6 years prior to Chavez fighting them.

Either way there's no distinctive difference to be made. It's not an argument I originally made, I simply don't understand what the thread starter is getting at here. Chavez's number of title defenses against ranked contenders hardly puts Louis to shame and Chavez had 4 different divisions to choose opponents from.
Chavez 27 successful defenses, Louis only 16, because I say.
MMJoe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 06:46 AM   #48
zadfrak
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,344
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

here is something for you to consider I don't think you have thought about yet.

In the early 90's, I spent about 3 hours talking to Al Braverman when he was the matchmaker for Don King Productions. Al was a guy you could talk to and sure swore a lot. And you also have to remember it was a different and easier time because there were multiple belts so a champion never faced the top 3 fighters in his division. Even if a guy fights the #1 contender, he is not fighting 3 other world champions in his same weight class.

Condensed and cleaned up, I spoke with Al about Chavez/Ruddock and then a few other guys. Al pointed out something very very simple--his job was to get Julio wins. Not losses and not tough fights, his job was to get the guy wins only. So there were numerous guys not on the Chavez opponent list and it was never ever a case of a Hagler who put his name on contracts and said to insert any opponent.

Braverman thought he was a good fighter alright but he also thought he had to do a real good job himself to continually find and scout the opponents Chavez could beat. He patted himself on the back with his matchmaking skills, but like he said you try and find the guy a bunch of easy title defenses. So Al had to be concerned about things like too many wars and his guy absorbing punishment and the continual wear and tear factor. He had to pick opponents that would not or could not do that.

He asked me if I thought anyone else anywhere could have done a better job than he did. I said no, and it was true---excellent excellent matchmaking in an era where that was possible.

Now, if Joe Louis had fought with 3 other belts available---just how do you think his matchmaking is with his great manager and great trainer?
zadfrak is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 06:55 AM   #49
Flea Man
มวยสากล
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: @ferociousflea
Posts: 39,853
vCash: 75
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Awesome post zadfrak. Never considered that before.
Flea Man is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 10:10 AM   #50
FastHands(beeb)
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 828
vCash: 500
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
I love it when people think Bum of the Month was meant literally.

It exposes all those little nasties who dont know anything about Boxing pre-1970.
...and who often rely on boxrec to prove their "arguments"
FastHands(beeb) is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 01:02 PM   #51
The Mighty One
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,214
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Louis would knock out Chavez within 3 rounds.
The Mighty One is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 03:30 PM   #52
Andrei00
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 373
vCash: 460
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mighty One View Post
Louis would knock out Chavez within 3 rounds.
End of thread.
Andrei00 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 07:26 AM   #53
frankenfrank
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,499
vCash: 4120
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Bum of d month was bum of d munth 4eal regardless of what they meant it 2b back then , u idiots .

I think i'd rank Louis' opponents h2h (by d time that he fought them) like :
1. Buddy Baer
2. Abe Simon
3. Arnold Cream
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. Lou Nova
7. Max Baer



..
..


d rest .


maybe places $4-#7 could have been mixed a bit differently .

It was in fact less than Kirk Johnson , Corey Sanders , Lance Whitaker , Hasim Rahman*2 , Robert Hawkins*2 , Jeff Wooden .

much much less .
frankenfrank is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2012, 08:26 AM   #54
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zadfrak View Post
here is something for you to consider I don't think you have thought about yet.

In the early 90's, I spent about 3 hours talking to Al Braverman when he was the matchmaker for Don King Productions. Al was a guy you could talk to and sure swore a lot. And you also have to remember it was a different and easier time because there were multiple belts so a champion never faced the top 3 fighters in his division. Even if a guy fights the #1 contender, he is not fighting 3 other world champions in his same weight class.

Condensed and cleaned up, I spoke with Al about Chavez/Ruddock and then a few other guys. Al pointed out something very very simple--his job was to get Julio wins. Not losses and not tough fights, his job was to get the guy wins only. So there were numerous guys not on the Chavez opponent list and it was never ever a case of a Hagler who put his name on contracts and said to insert any opponent.

Braverman thought he was a good fighter alright but he also thought he had to do a real good job himself to continually find and scout the opponents Chavez could beat. He patted himself on the back with his matchmaking skills, but like he said you try and find the guy a bunch of easy title defenses. So Al had to be concerned about things like too many wars and his guy absorbing punishment and the continual wear and tear factor. He had to pick opponents that would not or could not do that.

He asked me if I thought anyone else anywhere could have done a better job than he did. I said no, and it was true---excellent excellent matchmaking in an era where that was possible.

Now, if Joe Louis had fought with 3 other belts available---just how do you think his matchmaking is with his great manager and great trainer?
Possible and interesting, so who was Chavez actually kept away from though? They certainly went all in against Whitaker and Taylor so it certainly was 'win ratio'. Rosario and Ramirez were the best at LW bar Whitaker. Maybe McGirt at 140 could have happened and maybe an earlier fight with Camacho. Brian Mitchell at 130 would have been a good fight. How good were Pineda and Coggi at 140?

The Whitaker rematch and Randall rubber were obviously avoided. But overall Chavez fought most of the best of his era
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 03:15 AM   #55
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Possible and interesting, so who was Chavez actually kept away from though? They certainly went all in against Whitaker and Taylor so it certainly was 'win ratio'. Rosario and Ramirez were the best at LW bar Whitaker. Maybe McGirt at 140 could have happened and maybe an earlier fight with Camacho. Brian Mitchell at 130 would have been a good fight. How good were Pineda and Coggi at 140?

The Whitaker rematch and Randall rubber were obviously avoided. But overall Chavez fought most of the best of his era
I don't think Chavez went out of his way to fight either Whitaker or Camacho.

His choice to fight Roger Mayweather at 140 who he had already beaten and who Whitaker had dominated, rather than stay at 135 and face Whitaker, who he must have known beat Ramirez and got robbed seemed a bit of a duck to me. When he beat Rosario and Ramirez at lightweight he knew he hadn't beaten the division's best fighter.

Also could have made a fight with Camacho around 86 or again in the late 80's at 140, though in fairness to Chavez by that stage I don't think Hector was a better fighter than Roger.

Pineda was a better 140 fighter than Mayweather for mine. Roger was more skilled but Pineda was more a physical specimen and would have caused Chavez some issues with his physicality. Chavez would have won though, no doubt.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 03:37 AM   #56
KOTF
Bingooo
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,726
vCash: 66874
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

No.
KOTF is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 03:53 AM   #57
Andrei00
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 373
vCash: 460
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
I don't think Chavez went out of his way to fight either Whitaker or Camacho.

His choice to fight Roger Mayweather at 140 who he had already beaten and who Whitaker had dominated, rather than stay at 135 and face Whitaker, who he must have known beat Ramirez and got robbed seemed a bit of a duck to me. When he beat Rosario and Ramirez at lightweight he knew he hadn't beaten the division's best fighter.

Also could have made a fight with Camacho around 86 or again in the late 80's at 140, though in fairness to Chavez by that stage I don't think Hector was a better fighter than Roger.

Pineda was a better 140 fighter than Mayweather for mine. Roger was more skilled but Pineda was more a physical specimen and would have caused Chavez some issues with his physicality. Chavez would have won though, no doubt.
Well Sweet Pea moved from 135 directly to 147, to "fight better competition", I guess you could say that was his way of avoiding Julio.
Andrei00 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 02:20 AM   #58
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMJoe View Post
Joe Louis 26-0 in title defenses, 22 K0's.
(Including KO win over 3-3 Johnny Davis which may have actually been a exhibition)

Title challange record: 1-1 1 KO

Total years as champion: 11 years, 7 months

Total successful title fights; 27 with 23 KO's

Record against undefeated fighters: 2-1 1 KO

***

Julio Cesar Chavez 27-2 in title defenses, 18 KO's.
(3 divisions, plus 2 more in title unifications, if you wish to count them).

Title challange record: 4-2-2 3 KO's

Total years as champion: 12 years, 2 months

Total successful title fights; 31 with 21 KO's

Record against undefeated fighters: 7-2 6 K0's
Louis was 26-0 in title fights won and 25-0 in defenses. Not 26-0 in defenses. Ricardo Lopez holds the record with Louis for the most consecutive title bouts without a loss, 26. Altough one of those was a technical draw.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 04:29 PM   #59
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,526
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Julio couldnt carry Joe's jockstrap
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 04:47 PM   #60
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
Louis was 26-0 in title fights won and 25-0 in defenses. Not 26-0 in defenses. Ricardo Lopez holds the record with Louis for the most consecutive title bouts without a loss, 26. Altough one of those was a technical draw.
Debatable.

John L Sullivan or George Dixon might legitimately be at 30+.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013