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Old 07-08-2007, 05:00 AM   #16
Sakura
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

You're overrating Riddick Bowe badly.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Hmm, I'll have to think about this one

Charles
Schmeling
Patterson
Bowe
Walcott
Tunney

Are all in there somewhere
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:19 AM   #18
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindUp
I'm curious to see your top ten, because that seems quite low for Foreman. He's no joke as far as head-to-head matchups go, and starching Moorer as an old man is one hell of a feather in the cap legacy-wise.
Yeah, I had Foreman in my top 10 until very recently. The problem with a top ten is that there are only a limited number (.....10) of slots. The guys I have above him are Ali, Louis, Liston, Johnson, Lewis, Jeffries, Frazier, Hollyfield, Holmes and Tyson.

I tend to swap Tyson and Foreman about in 10 and 11.

Foreman was devastating but quite a clumsy, open fighter. In my own opinion the great offensive boxers from history would have KO'd him, and the great generals would have outfought and outthought him.
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:29 AM   #19
heerko koois
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopkinsfan07
do you mean Vitali ?
No ...i rank Vitali at number 21......
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

I don't believe Bowe is being overrated. A lot of people regard Holyfield as a top 10 all time heavyweight, and Bowe bested him 2 out of 3.

He only has one loss on his record, but his wins over Golata hurt more than help. Golata was outfighing Bowe in both fights, and threw those fights away. If Bowe had appeared able to handle Golata in those fights, he could be argued up there with Holyfield on the all time list.

He did face a few undefeated up and comers after his first loss, and none of those ever became top notch fighters, but he proved to be a class above them.

Larry Donald(world class amateur) had proven himself to be better than another young contender in Jeremy Williams(also world class amateur).

Herbie Hide defeated Michael Bentt(top notch amateur) who was mostly known for knocking out Tommy Morrison in the first round.
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Old 07-08-2007, 11:33 AM   #21
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

11. Frazier
12. Holyfield
13. Jeffries
14. Bowe
15. Tunney
16. Wills
17. Charles
18. Patterson
19. Walcott
20. Spinks
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

11. Larry Holmes
12. Harry Wills
13. Mike Tyson
14. George Foreman
15. Evander Hollyfield
16. James Corbett
17. Joe Walcott
18. Max Schmeling

19. Ezzard Charles
20. Bob Fitzsimmons

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Old 07-08-2007, 06:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

THIS is an interesting one....


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
12. Harry Wills
13. Mike Tyson



Care to coment?
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

11. Jersey Joe Walcott
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Jim Jeffries
14. Sam Langford
15. Mike Tyson
16. Floyd Patterson
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Max Schmelling
19. Harry Wills
20. Gene Tunney
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:24 PM   #25
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

What's your full list Minotauro? We just about agreed on the top pound for pound per decade thread. Heavyweight's are where we are different. I'll cut and paste mine over from elsewhere. The only ones that are out of place are Frazier and Lewis, I have switched them.

20) Floyd Patterson

19) Peter Jackson
1 Jim Corbett
17) Gene Tunney- Beat Dempsey, and Dempsey wasn't that old.
16) Max Schmeling- Beat a young Louis(#2)
15) Harry Wills- Beat Sam Langford more times than not. Can't crack top
10 without win over Dempsey
14) Jim Jeffries- Dominated, but fought during racial discrimination.He was
another of the white champs that didn't have to prove it
against black fighters(Jackson was in his late 30's).
13) Jack Dempsey- Never fought Wills. Never know if he was the #1heavy in the world without that fight.
12) Riddick Bowe- won 2 out of 3 vs. Holyfield(#9)

11) Sonny Liston- Destroyed Patterson, Williams, Folley


10. Mike Tyson

Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion ever, and had the best blend of speed and power ever seen in a fighter. He came out a winner in twelve title bouts. Tyson had the ability to rank higher on this list, but lacked the discipline. He never bested another elite fighter (Larry Holmes was 37), but Trevor Berbick, James Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, and Frank Bruno were all world titlists at some point in their careers. The knock on Tyson is that he never really overcame adversity in his fights, but when you were as skilled as he was you don't come across adverse situations all that often.

9. Evander Holyfield

Holyfield moved up from the cruiserweight division, where he was also champion, to excel in the heavyweight division like no other fighter moving up from below 200 lbs. has ever done. What he lacked in size, he more than made up for it with courage, determination, chin, and heart. He also had decent strength, a crisp punch, and above average speed. While his boxing skills were always apparent, he reinvented himself after losing his title to Riddick Bowe in 1992. He put on a masterful performance when he beat Bowe to regain his title a year later. He seemed to decline afterwards, losing a disputed decision to Michael Moore. He again rose to championship form, putting on a wonderful boxing display in stopping Mike Tyson, and another solid outing when he stopped Michael Moorer in their rematch. Other notable wins came against Michael Dokes, an aging George Foreman, an aging Larry Holmes, Ray Mercer, and Hasim Rahman.

8. Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis barely edges out Holyfield for this spot on the list. Lewis had his flaws, but did not seem overly confused by any style in particular. He had a size advantage over Holyfield. His competition was on par with Holyfield's. Not to mention a win over Holyfield, though I feel Holyfield had started his decline at that point. Lewis had a booming right hand, stiff jab, and has a victory over every fighter he has faced. With sixteen successful title defenses, spread over the course of two reigns, he ranks third amongst the heavyweight champions. He had a suspect chin, and was not always properly motivated for his fights; but only suffered two set backs in spite of these flaws. It would have been nice to have seen how he would have dealt with Riddick Bowe, but he was able to beat one man that had previously defeated Bowe(Holyfield) He also made short work of Andrew Golata. Golata had previously thrown two dominant performances over Riddick Bowe away due to fouls. Lewis also showed the ability to overcome adversity. He was in very close fight with Frank Bruno, and turned it on to stop him in the seventh. He was losing, in my opinion, to Vitali Klitschko; but seemed to be taking the fight over when that bout was stopped due to an awful gash near Klitschko's eye. Other than the aforementioned fighters, notable wins came against Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.

7. Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier was armed with one the best left hooks in division history, was strong willed, and had the gas to burn. Frazier's most notable wins were against Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, and Muhammad Ali. It is also important to notice he only lost to two men over the course of his career, both of which make this list.

6. George Foreman

It is tempting to think of Foreman as having two careers, as two different fighters, because of his ten year layoff from boxing in the middle of his career. Also because of his seeming personal tranformation. I don't really buy the make over. I am not saying he is a scam artist, or that he doesn't believe in his ministry. I am referring to the good guy, bad guy routine. I don't believe that Foreman was ever really a bad guy. I think he was perceived that way because of his strong will and savage strength. He brutalized his opponents in a way that it would seem only a thug be capable of. After his ten year retirement he came back near forty, bald, clean shaven, fat, forcing a smile, and perceived by many as a joke. Also perceived was a change of heart. It is hard paint a forty year old smiling fat man as a villian. George Foreman may now be famous for his smile, but he has never been a joke. Foreman posessed a sledge hammer jab, granite chin, dogged determination, and was probably the physically strongest heavyweight champion ever. Before losing his title to Muhammad Ali, he demolished Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He was involved in one of the greatest heavyweight bouts ever when he knocked out Ron Lyle. He inspired millions when, Foreman age 42, unsuccessfully challenged 29 year old Evander Holyfield for the heavyweight championship. He later went on to become the oldest heavyweight champion in history, 45 years old, when he defeated Michael Moorer. Shannon Briggs found out that a 48 year old Foreman was stil a formidable foe, when he was pummeled and won a disputed decision over him in Foreman's final outing.

5. Rocky Marciano

Marciano had one of the divisions best chins, bone jarring punch, and seemed able to keep coming no matter what.Rocky Marciano's record run of 49 straight wins is, as of this date, still a record. In fact, he never lost as a profesional. You might wonder how a fighter that never lost is not at the top of the list, but his level of competition is what stops him. For the most part, he faced the best he could. Joe Walcott was an excellent fighter, but was 38 years old for their first fight, and 39 in their second. Ezzard Charles may have been the finest light-heavyweight that ever lived, but the smaller man was into his 30's at the time of their fights. Archie Moore is another argument for best light-heavy ever, but was 38 year old out of his division as well. Marciano would probably rank 2 spots higher on this list if he had fought, and defeated (which was possible), Floyd Patterson. If he had faced, and defeated (doubtful), Sonny Liston; he would make an argument for the top spot.

4. Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes tends to be the most underated heavyweight in history. He ranks second in number of consecutive wins, which was 48. He ranks second with his title reign of over 7 years. He also ranks second with number of successful defenses with a more than impressive total of 20. His level of competition was not the best, but he managed to defeat 8 men that held world titles at some point in their careers. Holmes had one of the best jabs ever seen, was an accurate puncher, and was able to pick apart his opponent 69 of the 75 times one was place in front of him. Notable wins came against Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, James Smith, Carl Williams, and Ray Mercer. Holmes was age 42 when he beat undefeated, 30 year old, Ray Mercer.


3. Jack Johnson

You almost have to rank Jack Johnson highly just on the hell he went through to become champion. It was not easy being black in the early 1900's, and Johnson endured a double dose of hatred. Whites hated Johnson because he was black, and good. Some blacks hated him because he didn't act according to society's standards, and thought that his defiance of the racist majority brought a bad name to all black people. Johnson fought during a time that white fighters could duck black fighters by claiming that they did not believe in fighting people of another race. Johnson had to prove he was the best black heavyweight in the world long before he proved he was simply the best heavyweight. Notable wins came against Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, Al Kaufman, Stanly Ketchel, and Jim Jeffries.

2. Joe Louis

Louis may have had the best offensive arsenal in heavyweight history. His power was not that of someone like Mike Tyson, but he could definately hurt you with every punch he hit you with. The closest comparison I can think of at this writing is a heavyweight Julio Cesar Chavez. He has the longest title reign of anyone, over 12 years. He also has more consecutive title defenses than anyone with 26. Notable wins came against Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock, Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Billy Conn, and Joe Walcott.

1. Muhammad Ali

Ali may arguably be the most famous athelete ever, but that is not why he ranks at the top of this list. He had a top notch jab, exceptional speed, great chin, a will to win like no other; and he fought during the divisions most competive era. He has the most notable win column of this list with Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Ernie Shavers.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:28 PM   #26
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Legend
there is no explination for that travesty. a man who never even won the title above a man who not only destroyed the division but defended the title 9 times against all of the top contenders.
You can't really criticise Wills for not having won, the title, I mean who knows?

As to Tyson, I watched him fight Bonecrusher tonight, what do you make of that one?
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Old 07-09-2007, 03:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
THIS is an interesting one....
Care to coment?
If I were a lawyer paid to represent Wills I would be arguing for a top 5 slot for him.

Wills defeated a greater volume of world class fighters than any other heavyweight in history. OLD FOGEY conducted some analysis a few months back where he broke down the opposition of various heavyweights and ranked them acording to the number of wins they had against world class oponents.

The top three as I recall were-

1. Wills
2. Ali
3. Louis

In short I think that Wills career is one of overlooked greatness. A classic demonstration that not all that is gold glitters.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
If I were a lawyer paid to represent Wills I would be arguing for a top 5 slot for him.

Wills defeated a greater volume of world class fighters than any other heavyweight in history.
So why not have him in your top 5?
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:38 AM   #29
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindUp
What criteria do you use? Don't get me wrong, you have an argument on the whole, but putting Frazier above Foreman is pretty mind-boggling. Foreman crushed Frazier head-to-head, and it's hard to see Frazier finishing ahead of Foreman legacy-wise.
Well, Frazier has the single most significant win in the history of heavyweight boxing.

He is also hell on wheels at head to head.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: Your number 11-20 great heavyweights of all time

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
So why not have him in your top 5?
The number's don't tell the whole story. Still a very under rated fighter though.
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