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Old 09-10-2012, 06:39 PM   #16
TheGreatA
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Originally Posted by Bill1234 View Post
Angelo is easily in the top 3 cornermen of all time, his work speaks for itself in the corner.

I think he also took Ralph Dupas and Willie Pastrano from the start and took them to the top. I'm not sure when he started working with Basilio, but there was a time period where Basilio turned from a club fighter into a great fighter and I'm curious as to whether it was around the time Angelo started working with him.
It was Whitney Esneault who taught Pastrano and Dupas their basic skills. Dundee took them where Esneault couldn't though.

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Old 09-10-2012, 10:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

The man had to have known something.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzX-lbVrSmg[/ame]
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

Having been around Angelo in the gym, he knew ALOT.

He just wasn't a pure trainer. He needed a ton of facilitators. He had a great mind and a better eye, though, accompanied with unparalleled acumen. He made many very, very good business and management decisions, and very rarely did he get his hands on a fighter who then didn't go on to be special.

The guys list of legends is, quite possibly, longer than any other trainers/manager.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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I think when he and Ali first started working with eachother he did a fair amount of 1 on 1 stuff, but as he got older he just basically made observations and ensured all was going well in the camp.

Come the 80s he basically just showed up for the fights and did what he did best, get the fighters to perform at their highest possible level during the fight.
My thoughts.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Angelo says in his book I Only Talk Winning that he was Ray's manager, and hired trainers, sparring partners and other people to work with Ray. He scouted and chose the opponents, and handled the negotiations for the fights. And as others are saying here, provided advice and guidance and was the cornerman.

He's also pretty candid about how Ali was headstrong and he never gave Ali suggestions directly. Only indirectly, making Ali think he was the one who thought of something. That jives with what Archie Moore said about Ali. Angelo provided Ali the gym, and probably the sparring partners and scouted opponents. I think he may have started out as manager before Herbert Muhammad took over.

It's actually kind of comical to hear Angelo yelling "Get off the ropes" all night long during the Rumble in the Jungle. It's also touching to hear Ali menacingly tell Don King "never to talk to Angie like that again" during one of the press conferences before that fight (When We Were Kings).

I don't know how much of a hands on trainer he was to earlier fighters like Basilio.

But I don't think it's right to judge Angelo by what he was not. I think he should be judged by what he was and the enormous success he had. "Every master has his own book," as the Mexicans say. I don't always agree with that saying, but I think it applies here.
I think that Don King moment only happened in the movie Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234 View Post
Angelo is easily in the top 3 cornermen of all time, his work speaks for itself in the corner.

I think he also took Ralph Dupas and Willie Pastrano from the start and took them to the top. I'm not sure when he started working with Basilio, but there was a time period where Basilio turned from a club fighter into a great fighter and I'm curious as to whether it was around the time Angelo started working with him.
He was Basilio's cut man.

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Having been around Angelo in the gym, he knew ALOT.

He just wasn't a pure trainer. He needed a ton of facilitators. He had a great mind and a better eye, though, accompanied with unparalleled acumen. He made many very, very good business and management decisions, and very rarely did he get his hands on a fighter who then didn't go on to be special.

The guys list of legends is, quite possibly, longer than any other trainers/manager.
Well said. Very keen, sharp guy that definitely knew his boxing. A good eye, and good understanding of the book (Despite the way some of his more gifted fighters fight) and smart strategically. But he did not really delve too much into the specificity of tactics. He may have been the most suited to maximize talent the way he did with Ali and SRL. A real great match.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:57 PM   #21
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Well said. Very keen, sharp guy that definitely knew his boxing. A good eye, and good understanding of the book (Despite the way some of his more gifted fighters fight) and smart strategically. But he did not really delve too much into the specificity of tactics. He may have been the most suited to maximize talent the way he did with Ali and SRL. A real great match.
Exactly. Angelo needed a guy to hold the mitts, the bag, all that. The finesse wasn't his area.

He painted in broad strokes. And that included a fighters career trajectory.
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:29 AM   #22
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Having been around Angelo in the gym, he knew ALOT.

He just wasn't a pure trainer. He needed a ton of facilitators. He had a great mind and a better eye, though, accompanied with unparalleled acumen. He made many very, very good business and management decisions, and very rarely did he get his hands on a fighter who then didn't go on to be special.

The guys list of legends is, quite possibly, longer than any other trainers/manager.
Pleasantly surprised that you were around Angelo in the gym, MN. Me too, in the mid-'50s. I trained at 5th St. 'n fought for the gym's amateur team.

Angelo's vote of confidence before a match made me feel I could knock down buildings.
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:43 AM   #23
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Originally Posted by Kid Cincinnati View Post
Angelo says in his book I Only Talk Winning that he was Ray's manager, and hired trainers, sparring partners and other people to work with Ray. He scouted and chose the opponents, and handled the negotiations for the fights. And as others are saying here, provided advice and guidance and was the cornerman.

He's also pretty candid about how Ali was headstrong and he never gave Ali suggestions directly. Only indirectly, making Ali think he was the one who thought of something. That jives with what Archie Moore said about Ali. Angelo provided Ali the gym, and probably the sparring partners and scouted opponents. I think he may have started out as manager before Herbert Muhammad took over.

It's actually kind of comical to hear Angelo yelling "Get off the ropes" all night long during the Rumble in the Jungle. It's also touching to hear Ali menacingly tell Don King "never to talk to Angie like that again" during one of the press conferences before that fight (When We Were Kings).

I don't know how much of a hands on trainer he was to earlier fighters like Basilio.

But I don't think it's right to judge Angelo by what he was not. I think he should be judged by what he was and the enormous success he had. "Every master has his own book," as the Mexicans say. I don't always agree with that saying, but I think it applies here.
Great way to put things into perspective kc.
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
What brought some of Mirena's fighters and himself his fame would have put him behind bard where he belonged if justice ruled Corpor8 Republican Amerika .

And I do not care how many Republicans objected Ali during his time .

What allowed Mirena 2 do what he did and escape without even being interog8ed by d FBI was Republican cooking .
Can you elaborate ff? Are you implying that he was doing illegal things or just bent the rules during fights?
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

As an aside, there's been some talk about Angelo's mob connections and SRL is quite frank about them in his book. It's a passage about an old friend of Leonard who puts Angelo's lights out after a disagreement. Afterwards Leonard implores Angelo not to use his connections to get back at the guy.
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

Angelo said he was sucker punched in the back of the head on their way to the dressing room after one of SRL's fights (can't remember which one) in his book. I've read an older bio of SRL and he never mentioned anything about Angelo being dirty. This must be his recent book where he talks about being ***ually abused (Sugar Ray Leonard- The Big Fight-My Life In and Out of the Ring). I will be sure to pick this up in the near future.
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

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Can you elaborate ff? Are you implying that he was doing illegal things or just bent the rules during fights?
U know , so Y u ask ?
Ali's career :
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D ropes in Zaire , 4man's corner facing d sun , 4man being drugged (possibly) , Ali winning so many times due 2 cuts .
Did not Pastrano and Ellis cut ppl badly as well under his tutolage ?

U think it's all coincidence ?

Pastrano and Ali cutting so many ppl ?
Not just Quarry*2 , Cooper*2 and that guy from Texas , there were more cutting stoppages in Ali's resume .

No way Mirena loaded Ali's gloves , is it ?
No way Mirena cut his gloves in purpose vs Cooper .
No way Mirena put unfit ropes in Zaire .
No way Mirena lied about it all .
No way Mirena and his connections convinced Dick Saddler and possibly Archie Wright 2 dehydr8 and drug 4man in Zaire .

d ropes were loose just by coincidence .
No way that when Ali asked Mirena 2 cut his gloves in Manilla he meant 2 repeat Cooper #1 , and when announced d victor due 2 puffiness around Frazier's only functioning i , which also was just by coincidence BTW , Ali collapsed just by coincidence .

Oh , and them Smelling salts Ali received from Mirena between rds vs Cooper , in that coincidentally extended break between rds were just because their date was going 2 expire , so Mirena just looked 4 a good excuse 2 use them already so they won't b wasted .


Y do u think that Carl Williams , Larry Holmes , Jimmy Young and others whom resembled Ali in their style did not even come close 2 racking even half d amount of stoppages due 2 cuts in their resumes ?

And i m quite sure that there is a whole lot .

Mirena was as bad a hazard 4d sport as Don King if not more .

What i know about Mirena's crimes is just a drop in d ocean of his crimes .

He was a serial criminal , he made his living out of it .

r u seriously questioning me about Mirena being a heavy criminal ?

do u really have d amount of Republican spirit in u 2 openly question it here ?

because there is no way u did not know , right ?
do u claim that u r a real noob ?

Surely u will ignore some of my questions here . and my examples .

Last edited by frankenfrank; 09-12-2012 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
U know , so Y u ask ?
Ali's career :
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

D ropes in Zaire , 4man's corner facing d sun , 4man being drugged (possibly) , Ali winning so many times due 2 cuts .
Did not Pastrano and Ellis cut ppl badly as well under his tutolage ?

U think it's all coincidence ?

Pastrano and Ali cutting so many ppl ?
Not just Quarry*2 , Cooper*2 and that guy from Texas , there were more cutting stoppages in Ali's resume .

No way Mirena loaded Ali's gloves , is it ?
No way Mirena cut his gloves in purpose vs Cooper .
No way Mirena put unfit ropes in Zaire .
No way Mirena lied about it all .
No way Mirena and his connections convinced Dick Saddler and possibly Archie Wright 2 dehydr8 and drug 4man in Zaire .
4man faced d sun in Zaire just by coincidence .
d ropes were loose just by coincidence .
No way that when Ali asked Mirena 2 cut his gloves in Manilla he meant 2 repeat Cooper #1 , and when announced d victor due 2 puffiness around Frazier's only functioning i , which also was just by coincidence BTW , Ali collapsed just by coincidence .

Oh , and them Smelling salts Ali received from Mirena between rds vs Cooper , in that coincidentally extended break between rds were just because their date was going 2 expire , so Mirena just looked 4 a good excuse 2 use them already so they won't b wasted .


Y do u think that Carl Williams , Larry Holmes , Jimmy Young and others whom resembled Ali in their style did not even come close 2 racking even half d amount of stoppages due 2 cuts in their resumes ?

And i m quite sure that there is a whole lot .

Mirena was as bad a hazard 4d sport as Don King if not more .

What i know about Mirena's crimes is just a drop in d ocean of his crimes .

He was a serial criminal , he made his living out of it .

r u seriously questioning me about Mirena being a heavy criminal ?

do u really have d amount of Republican spirit in u 2 openly question it here ?

because there is no way u did not know , right ?
do u claim that u r a real noob ?

Surely u will ignore some of my questions here . and my examples .
The usual plain unadulterated bullshit.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

The one about Foreman's corner facing the sun is a new one to me. Particularly remarkable considering the fight took place at night.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:45 AM   #30
wordisbond
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Default Re: Angelo Dundee's Job

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
U know , so Y u ask ?
Ali's career :
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

D ropes in Zaire , 4man's corner facing d sun , 4man being drugged (possibly) , Ali winning so many times due 2 cuts .
Did not Pastrano and Ellis cut ppl badly as well under his tutolage ?

U think it's all coincidence ?

Pastrano and Ali cutting so many ppl ?
Not just Quarry*2 , Cooper*2 and that guy from Texas , there were more cutting stoppages in Ali's resume .

No way Mirena loaded Ali's gloves , is it ?
No way Mirena cut his gloves in purpose vs Cooper .
No way Mirena put unfit ropes in Zaire .
No way Mirena lied about it all .
No way Mirena and his connections convinced Dick Saddler and possibly Archie Wright 2 dehydr8 and drug 4man in Zaire .
4man faced d sun in Zaire just by coincidence .
d ropes were loose just by coincidence .
No way that when Ali asked Mirena 2 cut his gloves in Manilla he meant 2 repeat Cooper #1 , and when announced d victor due 2 puffiness around Frazier's only functioning i , which also was just by coincidence BTW , Ali collapsed just by coincidence .

Oh , and them Smelling salts Ali received from Mirena between rds vs Cooper , in that coincidentally extended break between rds were just because their date was going 2 expire , so Mirena just looked 4 a good excuse 2 use them already so they won't b wasted .


Y do u think that Carl Williams , Larry Holmes , Jimmy Young and others whom resembled Ali in their style did not even come close 2 racking even half d amount of stoppages due 2 cuts in their resumes ?

And i m quite sure that there is a whole lot .

Mirena was as bad a hazard 4d sport as Don King if not more .

What i know about Mirena's crimes is just a drop in d ocean of his crimes .

He was a serial criminal , he made his living out of it .

r u seriously questioning me about Mirena being a heavy criminal ?

do u really have d amount of Republican spirit in u 2 openly question it here ?

because there is no way u did not know , right ?
do u claim that u r a real noob ?

Surely u will ignore some of my questions here . and my examples .
Just, wow.
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