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Old 09-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #16
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
When I get time for this, you'll be sorry you wrote something so stupid.

I'll be waiting for your pathetic attempt to degrade an era filled with 6 future hall of famers, as well as many other young prime talented contenders.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

Marciano's Era 1950-1955

A good era


Joe Louis- 6'2 214lb Rated # 2 in the world. , Remarkable left jab, very technically solid boxing skills, heavy handed, 17 years experience. Won 8 in a row. 37 years old and way over the hill.

Bob Baker- 6'2 215lb. One of the more talented big young fighters to come along in many years. Terrific hand speed, athleticism, good pop, talented boxer. Very bad brittle hand injuries.

Nino Valdes- 6'3 215lb . One of the better long left jabs in HW boxing. Good Power, dangerous finisher. Strong, aggressive fighter with a good chin and a solid workrate. Lacks finesse, questionable heart, and is a bit uncoordinated.

Clarence Henry- 6'1 185lb- One of the best young heavyweights of the era. Electrifying two fisted power, explosive finisher. Good handspeed. Lost eyesight after one sided loss to Archie Moore.

Roland Lastarza- 6'0 185lb- One of the eras best defensive fighters. Very fluid boxing skills, slick smooth style. One of the most protected fighters of the era.

Rex Layne- 6'1 195lb- One of the brightest young bucks at one point. Good right hand, terrific chin, great workrate, tremendous courage, physically strong. Lost a lot of confidence after devastating KO loss in 51, never learned the concept of defense.

Harold Johnson- 5'10 175lb- An ATG left jab, fundamentals textbook perfect, outstanding skills, timing, and sense of range. One of the best pure boxers of the era. Questionable chin(if you could find it)


Archie Moore- 5'11 185lb- One of the best finishers of all time, terrific two fisted puncher, good left jab, outstanding upperbody movement, very slick, high boxing IQ, amazing experience. If you're a first ballot HOF heavyweight in your prime, you can beat him.


Ezzard Charles- 6'0 185lb- HW Champion who lost his title and became a top contender for the next 3 years. Outstanding skills, handspeed, fluidity, offensive arsenal, just a complete natural fighter of the highest rank. Good inside game, tremendous courage, very scientifc. Had trouble with long, powerful jabs from taller heavyweights and was declining physically.

Jersey Joe Walcott- Best footwork of the era, unbelievable ring savvy, amazing feints, top notch two fisted one punch knockout power. Very good left jab, cagey defense, physically strong. Starting to get up there in age, and was prone to off nights.

Floyd Patterson- Very young olympic gold medalist. Best combination of handspeed/power we had ever seen from a young fighter. Terrific skills, defense, and fluid upperbody motion. Good left jab. Great combination puncher. Very young, lacks maturity, vulnerable chin.



Good Era
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

More from Rocky in February 1966 -

The first time I saw Cassius Clay was 5-years ago, and I knew he was something
special, and could be a good Heavyweight Champion. He was so far more advanced
than any of the other Heavyweight fighters, in natural talent.

But there is something about the Heavyweight Division that frightens me. It is the
appalling 'paucity' of talent in the division, which will insure that Cassius Clay is a
Champion for a long time.

Most of the Heavyweight fighters today are dejected, as they waste their 'wares'
in second-rate gyms, instead of learning proper skills under the right guidance.

My fighter, Tony Alongi quit boxing last year for that reason, as he was completely
disgusted with the boxing game. Here is a young man, who has talent, but lost
complete confidence in the boxing game because he didn't want to play around with
shady promoters.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

Well it's almost tradition for former champions to consider the era after them a weak one. Happened with Johnson, happened with Tunney, happened with Marciano, happened with Frazier, happened with Holmes, happens with Lennox now. What else is new.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
He may've been right about that (I see it as subjective, myself). He was dead-wrong to call the mid-60's a lowly division. It was better than his time ever was.
It was pretty bad, c'mon, old shot in back Clevlend Williams? Sonny Liston, floundering in out of way places? Ernie Terell? it was dismal. George (slow as molasses) Chuvalo??? Karl Middleberg? If Ezzard Charles and Walcott are there, they clean up, and probably beat Ali. Marciano would tear that divison of time apart. Only reason they are known, is Ali was big name, and made average opponents famous. That is all.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:53 PM   #21
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
More from Rocky in February 1966 -
But there is something about the Heavyweight Division that frightens me. It is the appalling 'paucity' of talent in the division, which will insure that Cassius Clay is a Champion for a long time.
Ah, finally we get to the meat of the matter: the problem isn't with Ali, but that Ali was so much better than his competition. (There were occasional guys that might have an outside chance against him, but no true threats until Frazier came onto the scene just as Ali was about to be exiled.)

On that, the Rock and I solidly agree. Oh, and on the subject that Eduardo Corletti and others that Pepe likes to build up were nothing but flash in the pan nobodies who tended to be out of their league even against the "paucity of talent" that was the more highly ranked fighters of that time.

Last edited by The Wanderer; 09-10-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

After the Liston vs. Clay bouts -

Rocky knew what was going on,,,,,,,,,,,,though he couldn't be completely blunt.

Sonny was connected, and a back-room deal was agreed upon to get as much cash
as possible before sending Sonny out to pasture.

Cassius Clay had the connections and the backing of the LSG, to take the Championship
into another stratosphere.

But it all 'collapsed', as early as February 1966.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Ah, finally we get to the meat of the matter: the problem isn't with Ali, but that there was no one on the scene until Ali's exile that posed a threat to him.

On that, the Rock and I solidly agree. Oh, and on the subject that Eduardo Corletti and others that Pepe likes to build up were nothing but flash in the pan nobodies who tended to be out of their league even against the "paucity of talent" that was the more highly ranked fighters of that time.
Sometimes a 'flash-in-the-pan' is all it takes.

One-punch at the right time. If Henry Copper landed that punch on Cassius Clay 20-seconds earlier,,,,,,,,,you would have called Cassius
a 'bum'.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

Nah, I would have called Ali a guy who got knocked down, got up quickly, rode out the round, and finished Cooper in the following round.

Not to mention a guy who could compete at a high level for around 17 years before falling off, unlike guys like Corletti who apparently could only fight for about 2 years before going off the diving board and turn into a walking KO.
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Old 09-10-2012, 04:49 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Originally Posted by The Wanderer View Post
Nah, I would have called Ali a guy who got knocked down, got up quickly, rode out the round, and finished Cooper in the following round.

Not to mention a guy who could compete at a high level for around 17 years before falling off, unlike guys like Corletti who apparently could only fight for about 2 years before going off the diving board and turn into a walking KO.
There's a lot of controversy about that bout, and if Cooper landed that punch about 30 seconds earlier, I doubt Clay would have been able to survive the round.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
After the Liston vs. Clay bouts -

Rocky knew what was going on,,,,,,,,,,,,though he couldn't be completely blunt.

Sonny was connected, and a back-room deal was agreed upon to get as much cash
as possible before sending Sonny out to pasture.

Cassius Clay had the connections and the backing of the LSG, to take the Championship
into another stratosphere.

But it all 'collapsed', as early as February 1966.
I don't believe that for a second. In '64, Liston hadn't lost in ten years, demolished everyone in front of him (more or less), including a respected champion twice in one round. Clay got knocked down by Cooper and Banks. No one expected him to beat Liston and I think everyone believed Liston would reign for the better part of the 60's. With those prospects, no businessman in his right mind would send his cash cow off.

The is all not even taking into account how Liston was throwing hayemakers at Clay that would've (and had) knocked many heavyweights out. Not to mention he blinded the Louisville Lip, and proceeded to try take his head off.

Leading up to the Clay fight, Liston was reported to be in great shape, huge biceps, etc etc. The stories of him taking it easy and drinking only came after he lost, most of them written by McGrain.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Marciano's Era 1950-1955

A good era


Joe Louis- 6'2 214lb Rated # 2 in the world. , Remarkable left jab, very technically solid boxing skills, heavy handed, 17 years experience. Won 8 in a row. 37 years old and way over the hill.

Bob Baker- 6'2 215lb. One of the more talented big young fighters to come along in many years. Terrific hand speed, athleticism, good pop, talented boxer. Very bad brittle hand injuries.

Nino Valdes- 6'3 215lb . One of the better long left jabs in HW boxing. Good Power, dangerous finisher. Strong, aggressive fighter with a good chin and a solid workrate. Lacks finesse, questionable heart, and is a bit uncoordinated.

Clarence Henry- 6'1 185lb- One of the best young heavyweights of the era. Electrifying two fisted power, explosive finisher. Good handspeed. Lost eyesight after one sided loss to Archie Moore.

Roland Lastarza- 6'0 185lb- One of the eras best defensive fighters. Very fluid boxing skills, slick smooth style. One of the most protected fighters of the era.

Rex Layne- 6'1 195lb- One of the brightest young bucks at one point. Good right hand, terrific chin, great workrate, tremendous courage, physically strong. Lost a lot of confidence after devastating KO loss in 51, never learned the concept of defense.

Harold Johnson- 5'10 175lb- An ATG left jab, fundamentals textbook perfect, outstanding skills, timing, and sense of range. One of the best pure boxers of the era. Questionable chin(if you could find it)


Archie Moore- 5'11 185lb- One of the best finishers of all time, terrific two fisted puncher, good left jab, outstanding upperbody movement, very slick, high boxing IQ, amazing experience. If you're a first ballot HOF heavyweight in your prime, you can beat him.


Ezzard Charles- 6'0 185lb- HW Champion who lost his title and became a top contender for the next 3 years. Outstanding skills, handspeed, fluidity, offensive arsenal, just a complete natural fighter of the highest rank. Good inside game, tremendous courage, very scientifc. Had trouble with long, powerful jabs from taller heavyweights and was declining physically.

Jersey Joe Walcott- Best footwork of the era, unbelievable ring savvy, amazing feints, top notch two fisted one punch knockout power. Very good left jab, cagey defense, physically strong. Starting to get up there in age, and was prone to off nights.

Floyd Patterson- Very young olympic gold medalist. Best combination of handspeed/power we had ever seen from a young fighter. Terrific skills, defense, and fluid upperbody motion. Good left jab. Great combination puncher. Very young, lacks maturity, vulnerable chin.



Good Era
The best one could say about this era, is it was good. Some of the fighters were outstanding fighters at one time, but in the none of them were top shelf heavyweights in Marciano's era. Walcott, Charles and Louis were past prime, Layne was a contender at best. Lastarza was good, but not great Moore was an old, blown up Light heavy. Patterson was still green. Johnson was a LH posing as a HW. Valdez, Baker and Henry never were top shelf fighters.

Guy like Terrell, Quarry, Bonevena, Frazier, Chuvalo, old Liston, Leotis Martin, Jimmy Ellis, and the older version of Patterson, these guys were better than the 50's
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:41 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Some of the fighters were outstanding fighters at one time, but in the none of them were top shelf heavyweights in Marciano's era. Walcott, Charles and Louis were past prime
Disagree, Walcott was heavyweight champion, recorded his career best victories in 1951, he was certainly a top shelf heavyweight.

Charles looked to me a top shelf heavyweight the night he fought Marciano on june 17th, 1954...he would have been a tough out for many heavyweight greats

Moore was not a old blown up light-H, he was a naturally big light-H who had no problem fighting at a lean 185lb...Moore went 45-1 during Marcianos era, and defeated the 3 best young heavyweight contenders out there..and established himself the clear # 1 man
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Disagree, Walcott was heavyweight champion, recorded his career best victories in 1951, he was certainly a top shelf heavyweight.

Charles looked to me a top shelf heavyweight the night he fought Marciano on june 17th, 1954...he would have been a tough out for many heavyweight greats

Moore was not a old blown up light-H, he was a naturally big light-H who had no problem fighting at a lean 185lb...Moore went 45-1 during Marcianos era, and defeated the 3 best young heavyweight contenders out there..and established himself the clear # 1 man
Charles and Walcott were on the tail ends of their careers. Moore was clearly a tier below the best heavyweights.
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano 'February 1966 - The Heavyweight Division has no Pizazz'

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Charles and Walcott were on the tail ends of their careers
Walcott was heavyweight champion of the world coming off the best win of his entire career, I don't see how you can possibly give Rocky anything but full credit for this victory.

Charles was past his prime, but was still the ring magazine # 1 heavyweight contender in the world in june 1954, and put up an incredible performance on film for us to see with our own two eyes.

Moore clearly a teir below? Moores heavyweight record in his career was 75-3! He defeated # 1 rated contender Nino Valdes to earn his shot at Marciano. Also defeated highly regarded young heavyweights top 5 rated Bob Baker and Clarence Henry. Moore was a legitimate proven # 1 heavyweight contender!
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