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Old 01-26-2008, 11:10 PM   #16
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
What style? Slower hands, slower overall movement, open defense, mediocre chin? Sounds like an early Tyson KO to me.
Mediocre chin?

Also, Louis' handspeed is a lot closer to Tyson's than you think. Average speed of foot sure wasn't evident in his flashing hands.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Louis once said that he did not like fighters who crowded him. He was mainly talking about his loss to Rocky Marciano. Louis was completely past his prime for this match, but perhaps there was some truth in his words. If he indeed preffered to stay away from fighters who swarmed him like Marciano, then I'm not so sure that he'd look forward to a meeting with a man like Mike Tyson.

Tyson was not the technician that Joe Louis was, but he made up for it in other ways. He used a lot of upper body movement, a peak a boo style defense, and had tremendous handspeed along with historically great power in both hands. Louis was by far the better tactical puncher, but he'd have to go into the lion's den for it to be of any use to him.

Tyson's loss to Buster Douglas was a result of poor preparation, bad managment and going into the ring in an overall bad mental state. Louis's defeat to Schmeling occured when he was still a work in progress in my opinion. Therefore, I won't hold either of these losses against these two men, nor use them as basis to draw a comparison. Ideally, I would take Tyson in 1988 who beat Spinks vs Louis from 1938 who defeated Schmeling in their rematch. This would be probably the best renderings of these two fighters.

I'd pick Tyson by mid to late round stoppage.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Mediocre chin?
Not a very good one. Dropped and hurt far too often to have anyone consider his chin top notch. I'd give it a 6-7 out of 10.

Quote:
Also, Louis' handspeed is a lot closer to Tyson's than you think. Average speed of foot sure wasn't evident in his flashing hands.
His handspeed was not on Tyson's level. He had fast, accurate punches, in combination as well. But he never had anything like this.

BORKED
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Not a very good one. Dropped and hurt far too often to have anyone consider his chin top notch. I'd give it a 6-7 out of 10.

His handspeed was not on Tyson's level. He had fast, accurate punches, in combination as well. But he never had anything like this.

BORKED
I see your point.

But I consider Joe Louis a step or two above Mike Jameson.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Joe Louis beats Tyson by ko, Joe backs up Tyson and takes him apart ending fight with a left hook.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Not a very good one. Dropped and hurt far too often to have anyone consider his chin top notch. I'd give it a 6-7 out of 10.

His handspeed was not on Tyson's level. He had fast, accurate punches, in combination as well. But he never had anything like this.
I don't mind fighters getting hurt and even dropped a little as long as they are not getting stopped. That's some good durability and recovery. Larry Holmes is a superb example and Louis' "chin" might be a bit underrated i think. I'd be looking closer to an 8 with all factors considered. It's definitely not mediocre.

As for hand speed i think Louis is pretty much there with Tyson, or sure as heck close. Today i think it is his most underrated asset due to film even from his era being a bit average for showing speed. Louis always had the reputation for having fast hands, some say lightening.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Today i think it is his most underrated asset due to film even from his era being a bit average for showing speed.
Actually, film from back in the day had less frames, therefore making movements look even sharper, or faster. The film I've seen of him looks on point as far as speed, though.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Louis would go through hell with Tyson. As much as I like Joe, Tyson's got his number. He's faster, arguably more powerful, and his come-forward style is poison for the Bomber.

In my prediction, the determining factors here are, more than anything, defense and physical build. Louis will have MAJOR problems getting through Tyson's defence (just about everyone did), and even though he eventually will he will be taking tenfold the punishment in return. Even if we don't consider the fact that Tyson is arguably the greater puncher with both hands, the gross disparity between Tyson's defence and Louis' means that this will get ugly...fast.

Tyson's short, stocky build works in his favor in this fight. He gives up about an inch or two in height, but he has close to twenty pounds on his opponent..and Louis isn't the guy to muscle him around ala Holyfield, either. He'd be the come-forward bulldog in this matchup, and we know that Louis didn't especially like those types.

The last factor is chin. Tyson's is pretty much proven iron...Louis' not so. At the very best we can assert that Louis' chin is Tyson's equal... (although it almost certainly isn't), but even in that case he's at a huge disadvantage in handspeed, footspeed, and DEFENCE.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by SteveO
I see your point.

But I consider Joe Louis a step or two above Mike Jameson.
Well then, you obviously didn't see my point.

I was showing that clip to compare Tyson's handspeed to Louis's, nothing more. There is no footage of Louis showing handspeed like that.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:43 PM   #25
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by BUDW
Joe Louis beats Tyson by ko, Joe backs up Tyson and takes him apart ending fight with a left hook.
Ugh.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

I don't think Louis would last long against Tyson. Tyson would be too quick and too powerful. Louis could certainly hit, but I think Tyson would have the ability to strike first. No way Louis takes Tyson's best shot! I don't think the fight would go long!
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:47 PM   #27
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

BORKED

1.17 contains a combo where the other guys only movement was his head as Louis hit it.

Even SRR can look average speed on old film and we know that is sure not the case.

I still don't think older film do them much favours dynamicism wise.

I'm not knocking Tyson's extreme speed, just boosting Louis' a bit.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

1.17 contains a combo where the other guys only movement was his head as Louis hit it.

Even SRR can look average speed on old film and we know that is sure not the case.
That bit in the clip, with the slipping as well, kind of reminded me of Tyson, just a tad slower.

And SRR looks quite fast to me, especially when unleashing his combos. I have a hard time finding fighters of any era who had that kind of combination punching ability.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

I see a bit of Pryor v Arguello here, a little bit. Louis was very measured and controlled with his approach, with Tyson coming forward at a higher pace. Louis was very straight up and down like Arguello, and Tyson would not find him too difficult to catch. It depends how Louis adjusted to Tyson's onslaught. Would he cover up and go on the defensive or decide to punch it out with Tyson?

Louis' style would measure up better against Tyson for a slow paced affair, especially over the first 5 rounds.

As I say, the comparison is not with confidence. Some basic similarities. Tyson hits far harder as a heavyweight than Pryor did at 140lbs.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis vs. Prime Tyson(86-89)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Well then, you obviously didn't see my point.

I was showing that clip to compare Tyson's handspeed to Louis's, nothing more. There is no footage of Louis showing handspeed like that.
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