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Old 01-27-2008, 02:02 PM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

I think Norton would be very competitive, but he'd be better off to stay away from some of the division's bigger punchers. I think Wlad Klitschko and his brother Vitali ( a few years ago ), would have been a problem for the much smaller Norton who often struggled with the big hitters. Samuel Peter is not a particulary huge bomber, and nor does he always show up in the greatest of shape, therefore I'd pick Norton over him. Povetkin is still a work in progress, but if we were to take a 1974 Norton against the current version of Alexander, Kenny gets the nod. Maskaev at 39, would probably struggle and eventually lose to a youthful Norton. I haven't seen much of Chagaev so I'll leave that one alone. Ibragimov is a good fighter, but getting taken the distance by a 45 year old Holy, and having few other names on his resume, leaves me with the indication that Norton should be favored.

All in all, I think Norton would be a top 3 guy in 2008, and perhaps even holding an alphabet title. He would definately not have my confidence as a dominant lineal champion, but certainly one of the best. His questionable chin would keep him from being " THE MAN" though.
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Old 01-27-2008, 07:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Ken Norton is definitely being sold short here. He had amazing competitive spirit, good athletic ability, and was awkward with decent power.

As was said, either Klitscko probably sparks him, though it's hard to say for sure. Kenny had a good defense against straight punches and was great at spoiling people's jabs -- in this sense, Vitaly would do better than his brother, who is more reliant on jabs while Vitaly had a more varied offense, more hooks and uppers.

Ibragimov loses to Kenny 10 out of 10 times.

Chagaev stacks up better, but I'd pick Norton to win a UD.

Peter...determined with good power. It's a tough pick, but put a gun to my head and I say Peter.


Povetkin, Chambers....nope. Kenny would grind out a UD against both. Even though Povetkin is busy, Kenny would score better.
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Old 01-28-2008, 12:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Same as he did in 70's. Good performances against boxers who don't hit too hard, ko losses to the bangers. He had afear of hard hitters, it especially showed in Foreman bout.

Also Norton had that strange stance, where he dragged back leg. Moving forward he got away with it; backing up he was always in trouble.

He would do good against the grind away types, but a Sam Peters would be a problem.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Norton is a difficult fighter to judge.

His twin performances against an excellent version of Ali (second fight) and a peak version of Holmes taken as a combined pair are probably hard for any other HW to match.

But then again, Ali and Holmes lacked devastating power, and were not intimidating.

Norton could fold against big punchers and had some very poor losses (the flip side to his weird resume) - but I am not sure how much of that came from lack of confidence from the Foreman bout, and I suspect there are many men who would have folded against that version of Foreman.

And, Norton actually beat the count after the final jarring assault!!

All in all he is a mixed bag and presents a difficult case to analyse.

One thing you can say for sure, he will be in mint physical condition on fight night...
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

He was somehow still conscious with Cooney seemingly murdered him in the ring as well.

Ridiculously glassy eyed, but he was there to some extent.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:37 AM   #21
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Norton would probably get stopped by most of them
Not a certainty , but i wouldn't give him the edge..
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:40 AM   #22
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by bxrfan
The only guy i'd pick to beat Norton for sure is Klitschko. A lot of people are selling Kenny short here. He competed in probably the deepest Heavyweight division ever and didn't do too bad there.
the deepest hw division ever = americans only
= no outside competition
world champion = american champion vs american competition only.

Hard to judge an era where you only had US vs US.

maybe people are selling short today's division too , (no matter how "shitty" it looks).
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Old 01-28-2008, 03:06 AM   #23
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Ken norton is definitely being bashed... He was a skilled fighter.... few of the top current HW's are skilled fighters. With his determination and awkward style I'd pick him to defeat all but the current IBF champ. However, if he made it past five or six rounds with Vlad he would probably take the UD. Vlad always gets so tired b/c he's such a hulking guy. Everybody keeps bringing up Norton losses to Shavers and Cooney.... He was way old when he lost those bouts!
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:35 AM   #24
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Every modern fighter will be aware that Norton easily breaks up when pressed hard, and many will do just that, wipe the floor with him in the 1st or 2nd round and finish him. There's nothing to suggest he could find an antidote for this tactics or stand to it.
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Old 01-28-2008, 05:51 AM   #25
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by mochabuzz
Ken norton is definitely being bashed... He was a skilled fighter.... few of the top current HW's are skilled fighters. With his determination and awkward style I'd pick him to defeat all but the current IBF champ. However, if he made it past five or six rounds with Vlad he would probably take the UD. Vlad always gets so tired b/c he's such a hulking guy. Everybody keeps bringing up Norton losses to Shavers and Cooney.... He was way old when he lost those bouts!
He doesn't always tired late. It happened twice in his entire career when he was doing more weight lifting than boxing training. He still stopped McCline in the 10th (never stopped before or after), threw about 60 punches a round enroute to give Mercer his first stoppage loss, wasn't caught on the ropes on a single occasion in 12 rounds against Peter, didn't tire after he threw a shitload of punches at Byrd after the KD, went 12 with him including two knockdowns (one in the 11th) when Byrd was in his prime, threw over 60 punches a round against Brewster in the rematch with no sign of slowing down, stopped Brock in the 7th.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:46 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Ken would be top 10, I can see him beating Brock,Chambers,Austin,Byrd but again guys like Vlad,Vitali, would knock Ken out, I am not sure how much of a agressive puncher Chagaev or Sultan is but even Valuev could be trouble for Ken, the Norton of the Ali fight was an acomplished fighter and had an awkward style and could outhustle one of the champs but would not be dominant today, Ken could not fight backing up
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:19 AM   #27
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Ken would be top 10, I can see him beating Brock,Chambers,Austin,Byrd but again guys like Vlad,Vitali, would knock Ken out, I am not sure how much of a agressive puncher Chagaev or Sultan is but even Valuev could be trouble for Ken, the Norton of the Ali fight was an acomplished fighter and had an awkward style and could outhustle one of the champs but would not be dominant today, Ken could not fight backing up
Notron could box. Only Wlad would be able to out box him in a jabbing contest. Norton also had great stamina, very good speed, and solid power to the head or body. His chin vs good punchers and confidence vs punchers were his main problems. Unfortunely for Norton, this is an era with many punchers in it. Everyone in the top ten could hit on Quarry's level, and most hit harder. Norton matches up much better when the fighters did not hit as hard as a group, or were smaller.

You would have to assume Wlad, and Peter would stop Norton. Norton vs Chagaev looks winnable for Norton if Chagaev tries to out box him. Maybe Chagaev would land a good one and get the TKO. I still want to see a bit more of Chageav before judging him, but I think he would be a solid #2-4 guy almost in any era, and the top guy in a few timelines. I'd go with Chagaev over Norton.

Ibragimov vs Norton looks to be 50/50. I do think Povetkin would impose his will and defeat Norton, but like Chagaev I want to see a bit more of Povetkin.

I can see Norton as one of the champions today, but not the #1 guy. Maybe the 3rd or 4th best person today. Not bad.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:58 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxingcar
the deepest hw division ever = americans only
= no outside competition
world champion = american champion vs american competition only.

Hard to judge an era where you only had US vs US.

maybe people are selling short today's division too , (no matter how "shitty" it looks).
Ummm... ever heard of anyone by the name of Ingemar Johansson? George Chuvalo? Henry Cooper? Karl Mildenberger? Brian London? Gregorio Peralta? Joe Bugner? Know where those guys were from???

Saying that heavyweight boxing was only US competition at that time is like saying that heavyweight boxing is only eastern European competition right now. Boxing was just as global in that era as it's ever been. At that time, the US was simply producing all the best heavyweights. Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier and Foreman collectively beat down every one of the top non-American fighters listed above.
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Ummm... ever heard of anyone by the name of Ingemar Johansson? George Chuvalo? Henry Cooper? Karl Mildenberger? Brian London? Gregorio Peralta? Joe Bugner? Know where those guys were from???

Saying that heavyweight boxing was only US competition at that time is like saying that heavyweight boxing is only eastern European competition right now. Boxing was just as global in that era as it's ever been. At that time, the US was simply producing all the best heavyweights. Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier and Foreman collectively beat down every one of the top non-American fighters listed above.
Here's a reality check
Take a good look at the "all time greats" records
Let's take the most popular ones...

FOREMAN
WON 76
LOST 5

VS Foreigners
Schulz (GERMANY)
Coetzer (SOUTH AFRICA)
Lakusta (CANADA)
Chuvalo (CANADA)
Rodrigues (BRAZIL)
Almeida (BRAZIL)
Pires (BRAZIL)
Fulilangi (TONGA)
Mijangos (MEXICO)
Hernandez (CUBA)
Trane (ITALY)
Agosto (PUERTO RICO)
Roman (PUERTO RICO)
Paez (ARGENTINA)
Peralta (ARGENTINA)
Peralta (ARGENTINA)
Harris (JAMAICA)
Peterson (TRINIDAD & TOBAGO)


All his other opponents...
Briggs (US)
Savarese (US)
Grimsley (US)
Moorer (US)
Morrison (US)
Ellis (US)
Stewart (US)
Holyfield (US)
Anderson (US)
Jameson (US)
Cooney (US)
Martin (US)
Cooper (US)
Williamson (US)
Young (US)
Jaco (US)
Hitz (US)
Lux (US)
Qawi (US)
Trimm (US)
Sekorski (US)
Anderson (US)
Hostetter (US)
Crabtree (US)
Zouski (US)
Young (US)
Denis (US)
Ledoux (US)
Frazier (US)
Lyle (US)
Ali (US)
Norton (US)
Frazier (US)
Sorrell (US)
Gullick (US)
Boone (US)
Goodwin (US)
Wilson (US)
Caldwell (US)
Scott (US)
Boston (US)
Turnbow (US)
Kirkman (US)
Bailey (US)
Russell (US)
Johnson (US)
Eastling (US)
Woody (US)
Brassell (US)
O'halloran (US)
Polite (US)
Wiler (US)
Forte (US)
Hazelton (US)
Martinez (US)
Davila (US)
Clay (US)

(and obviously not a single eastern euro)

same goes for every other all time greats.
maybe with the exception of Lennox Lewis (but he's not american to begin with so he shouldn't count)

Do the experience with Norton's record or Ali's , Tyson's , Holmes' etc...
All the guys that you see today were pretty much absent from the scene..
Even in the 90's...
back in the 90's , they only had the mental midget (polish fighter) "Golota" , he was quite popular too. and who else?...

Then came Vitali Klitschko but that was in 96...(he's more part of the 2000 era)

we had to wait till aprox the end of the 90's to see 2 or 3 eastern euros be part of the scene...

Today ? it's part of the norm.
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Old 01-28-2008, 02:09 PM   #30
Mendoza
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Ummm... ever heard of anyone by the name of Ingemar Johansson? George Chuvalo? Henry Cooper? Karl Mildenberger? Brian London? Gregorio Peralta? Joe Bugner? Know where those guys were from???

Saying that heavyweight boxing was only US competition at that time is like saying that heavyweight boxing is only eastern European competition right now. Boxing was just as global in that era as it's ever been. At that time, the US was simply producing all the best heavyweights. Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier and Foreman collectively beat down every one of the top non-American fighters listed above.

Marciano_Frazier,

I think boxing is more global now that it ever has been. Top Russian and Cubans are turning pro now. That was not the case 30 years back.

Pre 1995 the heavyweight top ten has always had say at least 7 American fighters in it. More often than not, there were 8, 9, or sometimes 10 Americans in it. These days there is only one and he's marginal. ( Tony Thompson ). This can be directly traced to the Russians ( or Eastern Euro's if you prefer ) being able to become professional boxers.

Take away the Russians today, and USA would be back in the top ten with guys like Ruiz, Chambers, Byrd, Brewster, Mesi, Brock, McCline, Briggs, Donald, Holyfield, etc... It is true. It seems like every American I mentioned was beaten recently by a Russian champ or Russian top ten fighter, with the exception of Mesi who fought none.

While Foreman, Ali, Frazier, and Patterson were great, they never fought the top amateur talent from Cuba or Russia as professionals because both Cuba and Russia was a locked down country that made immigration illegal. If you threw in Stevenson, Savon, Vystrosky, and company history might have been a little different.

If you click on this link, you can see the past medal winners in the Olympics at heavyweight and super heavy weight. There are plenty of medal winners are heavy who never went pro because they were Cuban or Russian.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
I do not know what happened to USA boxing, but the geographic change in the divisionís top fighters can be traced to the Olympics. From 1988 to 2004 ( 5 Olympics / 20 years ) only 2 of 10 USA fighters medaled in the heavyweight or super heavyweight division, and they were Mercer and Bowe in 1988.

In 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2004 there were no USA medal winners at heavy or super heavy. Things do not look good in 2008 either.
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