Ken Norton in today's HW scene

[radianttwilight]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Norton KO's Wlad " badly ", but you give Povetkin a 50/50 shot. The light hitting McCline has a shot of beating Norton inside of 4 rounds, yet Peter doesn't.

Some strange picks here.

You misunderstood me, when I said "Gets knocked out badly", I was talking about Norton.

To clarify - both Wladimir Klitschko and Sam Peter would knock Ken Norton out.

NOT vice versa.

[SteveO]

I feel Norton beats or competes with everyone but Wlad.

As I stated earlier, I see him beating Peter.

Peter hits hard, but he's not like Foreman or Cooney.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Foreman beat the crap out of a Russian when he won the gold medal
He knocked the guy out in 2 rounds.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Foreman beat the crap out of a russian when he won the gold medal
He knocked him out in 2 rounds. Foreman had less then 20 amatuer fights at the time.

[Langford]

I think that Norton is without a doubt a top four heavyweight if he is fighting now. I would favor him against just about everyone out there except Wlad, Peter and Povetkin.

[boxingcar]

Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan

Foreman beat the crap out of a russian when he won the gold medal
He knocked him out in 2 rounds. Foreman had less then 20 amatuer fights at the time.

Another reality check....
Foreman beat the crap out of a "no hoper."
Pretty much like Muhammad Ali did too in Rome.

Here's what Foreman had to do in order to win his medal.
1rst round , had to fight polish fighter Lucjan Trela

Prior to his fight vs Foreman Trela used to fight the likes of Skoczek , Tekielski ,Kubacki,Górecki in other words , a nobody fighting other nobodies.

Quarterfinals , Foreman had to fight Ion Alexe (from romania) Better than nothing i guess. That's the best guy they had at the time. as romania ever been known for their fantastic heavyweights ? fuck no.
Ion Alexe never won gold , but he managed to win silver in 72 (after foreman). (Ion lost against a cuban boxer)

and btw , foreman's competition was in the +81 KG category.

Semifinals , Foreman fought Bambini (italian boxer)

Final
Foreman fought against Ionas Chepulis (from Lithuania) (soviet union)
Note: Chepulis was 10 years older.

and who was that guy ? another nobody
wouldn't even be concidered a can by today's standards


and that's the best "tough" competition they had at these olympic games.
And btw , we never heard of him ever again after this...

Same shit with Muhammad Ali (but that was in the Light heavyweight category)

Won gold , yes but against ? Pietrzykowski.
same scenario. A polish boxer (who was at the end of his career & 8 years older)
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Btw , prior to his fight vs Ali , he never won gold either.
He lost at the 56 olympics (though he still won Bronze)
after his fight vs Ali , he lost again in 64 (tokyo olympics) (but won Bronze again).

In an era where boxing was 10 steps ahead in america and when cuba & the soviets were banned , history took a turn in america's favor. It only was natural.

[boxingcar]

Go talk to any kid and ask him who Mike Tyson is
...chances are that 90 if not 99% of em will know...

Do the same experience and ask a kid who the fuck is Felix Savon
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Know what i mean ?

Here's another reality check...
Lennox Lewis' amateur record.

94 Victories & 11 Defeats

Lost against MIROSHNICHENKO (URS)
Lost against ABADZHAN (URS)
Lost against JAKOVLEV (URS)
Lost against STOJMENOV (BUL)

Lost against Luis GONZALEZ (CUB)
Lost against Luis GONZALEZ (CUB)

Lost against KADEN (RDA)

Lost against LITTLES (USA)
Lost against BIGGS (USA)

Lost against RUDDOCK (CAN)
Lost against THOMPSON (CAN)

If you don't see where i'm getting at....
Lennox Lewis fought a total of

33 canadian amateurs
Out of these 33 , he only lost against 2 of them.

12 american amateurs , and only lost twice against american competition

But he only had to fight 3 URS amateurs
AND GUESS WHAT ? He lost against ALL 3

Just imagine if the guy would've been forced to fight 33 URS amateurs

now keep in mind that it was in the 80's....
Then Lennox became the legend that we all know in the pros but AGAIN , look at his competition.

If you look at his entire competition from 1989 to 2003 what do you see ?
Only 2 eastern euros....
One of them was Zeljko Mavrovic (not russian though) from croatia (southeastern europe)
a guy he couldn't ko or even stun , faze with all his best shots.

and Vitali Klitschko (a fight vitali won on points / cards) but it had to be stopped because of the huge bloody cut on his cheek.

Which is why , whenever someone is calling today's hw division pure "shit"
I'm always being reminded that no matter how bad it looks , today's participants have absolutely nothing in common with what they had to offer back then. Is it a bad or good thing ? I don't know...most of these fights are fucking boring now but in the end , it's the result that counts.

If it weren't for the eastern euro invasion. Still to this day , there wouldn't be a white hw dominating this sport or wearing a belt.
Let's just ignore the eastern euros for a moment...

Look at today's TOP 10 , who do you see ?

representing USA
Tony Thompson (afro american)
John Ruiz ( Puerto Rican )

TOP 20 who do you see ?
Hasim Rahman (afro american)
Lamon Brewster (afro american)
Calvin Brock (afro american)
Chris Arreola ( mexican american)

and miracle , at the 20th spot , Tye Fields (white american if i'm not mistaken)

Do the experience and continue...check boxrec from top 20 to 30 , etc...
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wtf is wrong with white american athletes ? and that's not just for boxing. It's in every fucking sports. (well almost...not in the NHL , MMA , winter sports , swimming , greco roman wrestling and a few other disciplines)...There's also of course the likes of Tom Brady , Payton , Urlacher etc...in the NFL but in "general" ?

[radianttwilight]

Google Jeremy Wariner.

America's not without a "white hope" in competitive sports.

The truth is that Americans are Americans, whether they are white or black. If you really want to nitpick about the "lack of white American athletes", there are plenty of places where they outnumber black American athletes.

The leagues/sports you mentioned (such as the UFC and NHL) come to mind, as well as other ones such as MLS and lacrosse. There's no shortage of "white American athletes" in professional sports.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by boxingcar

wtf is wrong with white american athletes ? and that's not just for boxing. It's in every fucking sports. (well almost...not in the NHL , MMA , winter sports , swimming , greco roman wrestling and a few other disciplines)...There's also of course the likes of Tom Brady , Payton , Urlacher etc...in the NFL but in "general" ?

First of all, its not all sports. Baseball, football, and yes even Basketball has seen its fair share of white American athletes as of late. Hell, isn't Steve Nash American? I could be wrong, but he sure sounds like he is, and he is one of the best point guards in the league. I'm from Chicago, and I think Kirk Heinrich is one hell of a good ball player. Thats to say nothing about the fact that most quarterback positions are still dominated by white Americans, and not to mention there are a hell of a lot of good baseball players. As for boxing, I'm not creating excuses, but really it is a sport that has for the most part, faded out of a lot of caucasion American communities. I could go online right now and do a google search, and find very few boxing gyms in the northern Illinois area. I'm guessing that most of the ones that I would find, are not anywhere near MOST caucasion comminities. Sure, there are a few, but most of them either emphasize kickboxing, martial arts, or aerobic tae bo or some shit. The average White American athlete has more options than athletes from other areas or descriptions. There is always team sports, or the alternative of college. Most good ole' boys don't want to get hit in the head to earn a living when there are much easier ways to do it.

[ChrisPontius]

But the NFL, big Basketball and baseball contracts have always been there in the last decades. In the 90's we saw great American heavyweights. Something else has changed significantly.

[boxingcar]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

First of all, its not all sports. Baseball, football, and yes even Basketball has seen its fair share of white American athletes as of late. Hell, isn't Steve Nash American? I could be wrong, but he sure sounds like he is, and he is one of the best point guards in the league. I'm from Chicago, and I think Kirk Heinrich is one hell of a good ball player. Thats to say nothing about the fact that most quarterback positions are still dominated by white Americans, and not to mention there are a hell of a lot of good baseball players. As for boxing, I'm not creating excuses, but really it is a sport that has for the most part, faded out of a lot of caucasion American communities. I could go online right now and do a google search, and find very few boxing gyms in the northern Illinois area. I'm guessing that most of the ones that I would find, are not anywhere near MOST caucasion comminities. Sure, there are a few, but most of them either emphasize kickboxing, martial arts, or aerobic tae bo or some shit. The average White American athlete has more options than athletes from other areas or descriptions. There is always team sports, or the alternative of college. Most good ole' boys don't want to get hit in the head to earn a living when there are much easier ways to do it.

Nop , Steve Nash is not american. He's canadian ( born in Johannesburg, South Africa ) Which also begs the question , why is it that even when there's a white minority in a sport mostly dominated by blacks , WHY are the top white players foreigners ?

Who won MVP last year ? I think it was Dirk something (can't remember his name) but i know that the guy is from germany.

Manu Ginobili (sp ? ) ANOTHER foreigner...

where's the local white "american" talent at ?
And basketball is a team sport. not an individual one.

Btw , you're talking about kickboxing and well , guess what ? SAME SHIT...
Do you know who's dominating that fucking sport ? Certainly not white americans (nor afro americans actually)....but that's not the issue here.

the GOAT of mma ? another russian (emelianenko)

SO , the white american athlete has "MORE OPTIONS"...
Sure , sure...I'm not contradicting that. that's not the point though...
Because there's tons of white americans who are pro boxers too , but they often (more so than not) end up as being the black boxer's "can".

Same shit with Tennis...
most dominant white players ? (not counting federer) tend to come from eastern europe (or argentina and the rest of europe)...

And america's top stars are ? surprise surprise Andy Roddick (white american) and James Blake (afro american). (do i even need to mention the william sisters ? )...

Now , i'm not saying that white americans suck at all sports. I'm not even insinuating it. But it's clear that in certain sports (whether we're talking about "team" or "individual" ones) , they seem to be incapable to impose themselves. And to this day!....this still is the case in pro boxing.

When people are talking about Calzaghe they're of course not talking about another eastern euro boxer , but they're not talking about an american one either...(he's welsh & italian , & born in europe)...same shit for Hatton.

substract all the eastern euros or white euros in general...and you'd still have the same shit that you had back in the 70's , 80's...afro american champs & white american cans.

I'm not making an obsession here but EVEN the white american talent Kelly Pavlik...just so happens to have an eastern europeanish sounding name "pavlik" (slovakian name..center of europe)..maybe that's why he's a top fighter ? (joking)...

[kenmore]

Originally Posted by SteveO

How does he stack up?

Norton would have had the edge over all of today's heavyweights outside of Vladimir Klitschko. Klitschko vs. Norton could have gone either way.

If Norton were around today, he and Vladimir Klitschko would be in a class of their own.

[BOGART]

Ken Norton would be the 2nd best heavyweight today. I'd confidently pick Wlad to beat him, but Norton's the favorite agains anyone else. But if Norton were to fight a lot of the best out there today someone would upset him. As we all know he didn't have the best results with bangers and there are a number of them out there today. Someone would pull the upset somewhere. Still Norton would be the number 2 man today.

[janitor]

I think Norton is being sold a bit short here.

Yes Klitschko would likley steamroller him but beyond that-

Peter, Chagev, Maskaev, Ibragimov. None of these guys is a Foreman or even a Shavers or Quarry.

Jimmy Young would have beaten the lot of them.

[unitas]

i disagree. guys like peter and chagaev are tremendous punchers. they could overwhelm norton.