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Old 02-02-2008, 05:25 PM   #46
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by unitas
i disagree. guys like peter and chagaev are tremendous punchers. they could overwhelm norton.
They wouldnt know how to.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:04 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by janitor
I think Norton is being sold a bit short here.

Yes Klitschko would likley steamroller him but beyond that-

Peter, Chagev, Maskaev, Ibragimov. None of these guys is a Foreman or even a Shavers or Quarry.

Jimmy Young would have beaten the lot of them.
Although Norton usually ranks higher (personally, i'm more impressed by Young), Young is much harder to beat than Norton. Norton can give boxing type of figthers hell, but chokes against punchers or pressure fighters. Young can handle them all.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:09 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by unitas
i disagree. guys like peter and chagaev are tremendous punchers. they could overwhelm norton.
If you check Norton's career history, though, you'll see that it took exceptionally strong punchers to exploit his durability. We're talking about punchers on the level of Foreman and Shavers, which is exceptional by any standard in boxing history.

Chagaev and Peter are heavy hitters, I agree, but they aren't in the league of Foreman and Shavers.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:21 PM   #49
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Unranked Garcia, was just coming out of middleweights, and wasn't a strong puncher, but handled that journeyman easily.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:43 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Unranked Garcia, was just coming out of middleweights, and wasn't a strong puncher, but handled that journeyman easily.
Garcia was known to be a strong puncher. He was raw, but he could hit.

I don't think that Garcia beat Norton easily. My understanding is that the bout was hard fought until Ken fell in round eight.

Anyway, Norton was inexperienced at the time of the Garcia fight. He wasn't the seasoned boxer who later become a great heavyweight.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:20 AM   #51
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

Garcia had a record of 12(6)-2-1 coming into Norton 16(15)-0 bout. Norton was praised in one of Ring issues prior to this fight as a coming up prospect, Garcia was pretty much a nobody.
Garcia has just moved up from 160 lb less than 2 years prior to Norton bout, and was fighting as a heavyweight basically only for the 2nd time.
Norton was knocked down in the very first round against Garcia, and managed to get up only at the count of 7, but was saved by the bell.
Norton was in trouble in round 5, but somehow managed to avoid another knockdown.
Norton was knocked down for the eight count in the 8th, barely got to his feet, but was knocked down again with two more punches as the bell ended the round. The referee stopped the fight, and the ring physician indicated at the same time he was going to do the same thing.
Norton was knocked down two times previous to Garcia bout by two nobodies, and several fights later by yet another nobody. He had a weak chin and little if any recuperative abilities.
Norton was picked as a tune-up opponent for 1st Ali fight, he got ranked only on a streak of wins against tomato cans, having beaten 0 (zero) ranked opponents prior to Ali fight.
Norton has one of the worst records of meeting with ranked opponents, of all fighters inducted into IBHoF.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:11 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Norton was knocked down in the very first round against Garcia, and managed to get up only at the count of 7, but was saved by the bell.
Norton was in trouble in round 5, but somehow managed to avoid another knockdown.
Norton was knocked down for the eight count in the 8th, barely got to his feet, but was knocked down again with two more punches as the bell ended the round. The referee stopped the fight, and the ring physician indicated at the same time he was going to do the same thing.
Where did you see this fight? I would really like to view it. The word all these years was that Norton was way ahead on points before running into a lucky punch from Garcia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Norton was knocked down two times previous to Garcia bout by two nobodies, and several fights later by yet another nobody. He had a weak chin and little if any recuperative abilities.
Norton was picked as a tune-up opponent for 1st Ali fight, he got ranked only on a streak of wins against tomato cans, having beaten 0 (zero) ranked opponents prior to Ali fight.
Norton has one of the worst records of meeting with ranked opponents, of all fighters inducted into IBHoF.
Interesting that Norton was floored by a few nobodies. I just checked boxrec.com and confirmed that you are right.

Even so, I don't think Norton's chin was as bad as you say. Watch his match against Jerry Quarry, who was a serious banger. Norton absorbed numerous heavy shots from Quarry and came back swinging hard.
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:22 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Although Norton usually ranks higher (personally, i'm more impressed by Young), Young is much harder to beat than Norton. Norton can give boxing type of figthers hell, but chokes against punchers or pressure fighters. Young can handle them all.
I am of the same mind on this issue.

To put things in perspective however I would expect Young or Quarry to beat all the curent beltholders (Chagev, Maskaev, Peter, Ibragimov) with the possible exception of Wlad.

While they might upset Norton I would still expect him to take care of business.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:02 AM   #54
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

I haven't seen a video of 1st Norton-Garcia listed anywhere. I'm going by newspaper report.

Norton's KD by Dutra at boxrec I added myself, took it from one of The Ring issues.

Sorry, but Quarry was old and had a less than 50% KO ratio anyway, his punching power doesn't impress on the film I've seen (about a dozen fights I think).
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:40 AM   #55
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Unranked Garcia, was just coming out of middleweights, and wasn't a strong puncher, but handled that journeyman easily.
Garcia was a ranked heavyweight in his day. I beleive Norton ran out of gas in the fight that Garcia won. Keep in mind Norton had very little amateur experiences, and turned professional at a relatively late age. Had Norton had a full amateur career and turned pro a few years younger than he did, I for one think his career is even better. Norton was not a journeyman at all.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:54 AM   #56
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Garcia was a ranked heavyweight in his day. I beleive Norton ran out of gas in the fight that Garcia won. Keep in mind Norton had very little amateur experiences, and turned professional at a relatively late age. Had Norton had a full amateur career and turned pro a few years younger than he did, I for one think his career is even better. Norton was not a journeyman at all.
Norton didn't run out of gas, he froze. He wasn't himself in this fight, which happened to him vs punchers. He was a bit unlucky with the timing of the punch possibly just after the bell, but wasn't looking good.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:00 AM   #57
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Norton didn't run out of gas, he froze. He wasn't himself in this fight, which happened to him vs punchers. He was a bit unlucky with the timing of the punch possibly just after the bell, but wasn't looking good.
What happened in the rematch ?
Did Norton freeze again ?
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:04 AM   #58
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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What happened in the rematch ?
Did Norton freeze again ?
Hey, just going by Futch.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:12 AM   #59
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Hey, just going by Futch.
Yeah, I agree, but have you seen the fights ?

Maybe Norton lost his "freeze" when matched with the puncher second time round. He beat Garcia, after all. I wonder if he beat him IN SPITE OF being frozen, or whether he was back to his normal self ??
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:22 AM   #60
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Default Re: Ken Norton in today's HW scene

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Yeah, I agree, but have you seen the fights ?

Maybe Norton lost his "freeze" when matched with the puncher second time round. He beat Garcia, after all. I wonder if he beat him IN SPITE OF being frozen, or whether he was back to his normal self ??
Ok, fair question. He knocked him down continuously in the rematch so must have fought ok. It appears he'd been ko'ed 5 times in the 5 years after he first beat Norton. Interestingly Garcia was about 25 pounds heavier too, and retired one fight later after the rematch. Norton had moved a long way forward in the mean too. Futch said he was unlucky to be caught after the bell in the first fight, but had not been himself.

If we dig deep tho we see Garcia was a very average fighter and may have been lucky to get Norton off guard at the bell. Futch doesn't quite imply it was on the level of Shavers and Foreman.
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