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Old 09-18-2012, 12:07 AM   #46
Seamus
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by yancey View Post
I was astounded the day I studied the records of some of Rocky's opponents.

At one point, within 18 months of meeting up with Walcott, Rocky fought three straight fights with opponents who had LOSING records.

Can you imagine Ali or Frazier doing that?

Sorry, but it is true. Marciano fought a bunch of cans.
Go have a gander at George Foreman's early record.

And who exactly did Marciano duck? That is the real question. Filler fights don't count against a prospect as long as he is jostling for position and does fight legit competition to get the title... i.e. Layne, Matthews, Louis.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:18 AM   #47
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Marciano was a great all Italian-American fighter of the ages. And, as a heavyweight, he was prolly top-5 between 1887 to 1960.. However, post 1960, I can only place Rocco Marciano in the top-15 at best...


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Old 09-18-2012, 01:17 AM   #48
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by yancey View Post
Not shabby at all.

I NEVER said Rocky was not a great. I did say he fought an unusually high number of cans and I'll stand by that.

In prime matchups, I would take Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis,
Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis over Rocky.

In addition, I think prime Charles and Walcott would stand very viable chances.

Of course there are others that never held the title that would have made for interesting matchups against Rocky.
Had you seen Rocky fight live, y, any chance you might view him more favorably?
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:23 AM   #49
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Quote:
Originally Posted by yancey View Post
I was astounded the day I studied the records of some of Rocky's opponents.

At one point, within 18 months of meeting up with Walcott, Rocky fought three straight fights with opponents who had LOSING records.

Can you imagine Ali or Frazier doing that?

Sorry, but it is true. Marciano fought a bunch of cans.
I wonder how do you feel about Foreman, who fought a losing-record guy about 3 months before Frazier.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:24 AM   #50
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by MRBILL View Post
Marciano was a great all Italian-American fighter of the ages. And, as a heavyweight, he was prolly top-5 between 1887 to 1960.. However, post 1960, I can only place Rocco Marciano in the top-15 at best...


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How do you rate him head to head all time against other sub 200 pounders?
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:36 AM   #51
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by yancey View Post
Not shabby at all.

I NEVER said Rocky was not a great. I did say he fought an unusually high number of cans and I'll stand by that.

In prime matchups, I would take Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis,
Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis over Rocky.

In addition, I think prime Charles and Walcott would stand very viable chances.

Of course there are others that never held the title that would have made for interesting matchups against Rocky.
I wouldn't favour Jeffries, Johnson, Tunney, Dempsey, Frazier or Holyfield over Marciano but that's just me.

Also how can you say he fought an "unusually high number of cans?" when he beat top contenders in Lastarza x2, Layne, Mattews, Savold and beat ATG's in Louis (old but was going in with 8 victories and if you discount his loss to Charles he hadn't lost in 15 years), Walcott x2 and Charles x2. He also never ducked anyone the only other big name of the era he could've fought was Valdes who Moore KO'd to secure a shot at Marciano's title. Look at the records of Foreman or Tyson's early opponents if you want cans.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:52 AM   #52
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Rocky Marciano was a great fighter. His determination and conditioning stand out to me the most. Like Freddie Brown once said "this aint like football because Rocky never gives you the ball". Ofcourse he had great power in both hands.

I also think Rocky had certain moves that his opponents never quite figured out. He had the ability to get that power to the target. Marciano`s career is definitley a success story. He was able to walk out on his terms with is health in tact.

With that said I Rocky did have Al Weil managing his career at the same time that he was the New York boxing commionser. He was an undercover manager up until I believe the Mathews fight. Dempsey gets critized for Kearns and I think Marciano may have had an advantage because of this arrangement.

The 49-0 is a little overated because Marciano fought so many club fighters in Providence. At least 35 or 40 of those wins were not at the world class level. At least compared to many other great who take on the iron after 20 or so fights. Joe Frazier for example started facing contenders around his 12th pro fight.

I understand Rock didnt have as extensive amatuer career. So he was learning on the job things that others might have picked up in the amatuer ranks.

Anyway the 49-0 isnt as impressive as some make it out to be but Marciano`s championship reign was impressive. He fought good fighters and he always found a way to win.

I know the people that saw him fight will never forget him. And that is more important than any #
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:39 AM   #53
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

How many could register 6 fights against Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore without dropping the ball once? How many would win all but one by KO? Who many would definately even register KOs against EVERY one of them? Especially when you consider that the latter 3 all fought their finest performances against him (IMO) verified by Walcott and Moore?

Plus Andrei's post about how ridiculous it is that Lee Savold should go from ranked no.2 to un ranked in the space of one defeat illustrates for me the short-sightedness of just saying well he wasn't even ranked at the time? Yes not a world beater but an experienced campaigner who knew enough to mix it with the likes of Joe Louis and Jimmy Bivins so to just say he was unranked is lazy.

Agree with everything Choklab has said so far - plus regards examples of supposedly 'super heavies' actually fighting at unfamiliarly light weights - I think for instance Lennox Lewis was at his very best at the 227 he was against Razor - carrying an extra 20lbs just made him sluggish IMO. And Rid**** Bowe was never better than the 235 he was in the first Holy bout and probably could've dropped another 7 or 8 pounds aswell (and probably had by the later rounds anyway). In this vain I do agree with the stuff about 'artificial weight' - if anyone has seen footage of the Klitschko's in their kickboxing careers you will know the difference between their genuine size and weights and their artificial weights that most are unaware about.

Plus Goodnite Irene I have Rocky Marciano no.1 all time hahaha what do you think of that??

Plus Rock's opposition on the way up included a lot o highly touted prospects actually - the likes of Carmine Vingo, Roland LaStarza, Rex Layne and Kid Matthews aswell as lots of experienced journeymen like Savold and Tiger Ted Lowry etc
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:12 AM   #54
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
Plenty, if they fought an old Walcott, very tired Charles, and totally shot Louis.

Someone like Foreman's best wins are ****ing miles better.
Hahaha we must be on different planet son this - I was actually going to say Foreman is one fighter who I would say would DEFINATELY drop one loss if he had to go six fights against that bunch! Haha
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:21 AM   #55
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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I'm a great admirer of Rocky. I have him in my top 3.

I think on his best day he could have beaten anyone who ever fought. His will to win was an intangible that doesn't show on the tape.

On the downside, I have to say he was a very dirty fighter. He hit low, hit on the break and after the bell. He hit La Starza when he was on one knee. He may have done that to others.

Out of the ring, his cheapness was legendary and almost laughable.

On that point, we was not unlike a lot of people who grew up during the Great Depression. That has to be factored in.
He was not t dirty fighter, why lie about that? If he did hit Lastaraza while on knee, it is never mentioned, and must have been while lastaraza was on way down.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:21 AM   #56
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Marciano is in my top 4 of all time, and might be number 1.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:35 AM   #57
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
Plenty, if they fought an old Walcott, very tired Charles, and totally shot Louis.

Someone like Foreman's best wins are ****ing miles better.


This has to be trollng.

Charles tired?? How tired was a one eyed Frazier after dominating the 1967-71 period? How tired was Ali in 1974?

If you look at the world champions active during marcianos career Rocky knocked them all out. He knocked out #1 contenders who beat other contenders. You cannot say that about Foreman. where were Liston, patterson, Holmes, spinks on foremans record? what contender did jose roman beat?

Walcott was a great fighter defending his title. watch the fight! that is an all time great worthy performance in his losing effort against Rocky. When Rocky fought walcott the world regarded walcott as the best heavyweight in the world then each of his title fights were against men who were regarded as the second best man in the world or the best man in europe. He knocked them all out.

When was jose roman, ron lyle, scott ledoux, jimmy young regarded as the second best in the world?

Foreman had a great win over Frazier but the timing was right. Norton? History proves Ken was an elite fighter who didnt get past big punchers. Thats Foremans two elite wins.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:30 AM   #58
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
As funny as the rest of your post is, its just plain disrespectful to Charles to pretend he wasnt a fading shell.

Seriously, Rocky would be the first to admit it. You people are absolutely in denial about his can-filled CV. You want to talk about timing? No one was ever born at a more right time than Rocky...except maybe Vitali.
Are you being serious? Charles was not a shell, and was still on top. He also fought great fight against Marciano. Sounds like you have some issues with Marciano.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:33 AM   #59
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Its a dumbass marathon.
I responded to one of your posts few minutes ago , did not realize it was on this thread started yesterday.
What could have been good thread about a book got ruined by your bull****. Five ****ing pages of you spamming. What an asshole.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:41 AM   #60
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Foreman may consecutively beat Walcott, Charles, Louis, LeStarza and Moore, might do. But we know he managed to pick up 2 prime losses against Frazier, Norton, Ali, Lyle, Frazier 2, Young. Ali being well past his best and Young for many being nowhere near Charles/Walcott
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