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Old 09-18-2012, 09:00 AM   #61
RockysSplitNose
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Just to add on Marciano's tomato can early opponents yes maybe not world beaters but as bread and butter early showings they weren't half as bad as is popularly painted - I think to often its a case of Chinese whispers half the time - one writer says he dough nothing but bums so whoever reads it just repeats what he has read and so on - no one really ever fights anyone amazing but amongst some of his lesser known early career opponents were Keene Simmons who also went the distance twice with Roland LaStarza, twice with Cesar brion, went the distance with Charley Norkus and also went the distance with Niño Valdes and also Big Cat Cleveland Williams which ain't too shabby.
Another tomato can was Red Applegate and he was enough of a tomato can to go the distance with Jimmy Bivins, Marty Marshall, Omelio Agramonte an Archie McBride so that's not too bad as far as bums go??
Johnny Shkor went the distance with Big boy brown, Joe Baksi, Nathan Mann, Curtis Sheppard (!!!!!!), Jimmy Bivins, and Bernie Reynolds and TkO'd Tami mauriello so - on the downside he was ko'd by Walcott but again that's a real campaigner right there - obviously not a world beater but they're not gunna be at that stage in your career?
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:34 AM   #62
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Danmann View Post
He was not t dirty fighter, why lie about that? If he did hit Lastaraza while on knee, it is never mentioned, and must have been while lastaraza was on way down.

Tell all this to Don ****ell.

Last edited by yancey; 09-18-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:12 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

He was a dirty fighter, just as Holmes was, just as Lewis was, just as Greb was, just as Ali cheated... big deal. It's not badminton; it's boxing. People get hurt. Bottom line is no one ever beat his ass.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
How could they, given the competition.

I bet some of the genuflectors at Marciano's altar around here think Dempsey, Foreman, Louis, Ali, Holmes, Frazier, and on and on it goes, wouldnt have gone 49-0-0. You know you're dealing with hero worship when you have guys claiming Ezzard Charles wasnt shot to hell when he battled their man
Charles was the same kind of "shell" muhammad Ali was when he met Foreman. 32 year old #1 contender.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #65
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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What do you make of his chances against modern super-heavyweights?
different eras, john l to end of dempsey then the transitional period of the 1930s/joe louis-floyd patterson then liston/ali to the end of larry holmes title run, i would say the super heavys are tyson-modern day.

the gloves were different, more rounds, the refs let you fight untill you died, doctors wouldnt stop fights, no standing 8, very corrupt scoring. average heavyweights were 190-205. different era imo.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #66
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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a "super heavyweight" is one of two things.
he’s either
1. a natural giant.
2. an enhanced body builder.

neither one is a genuine 3 minuets a round, fifteen round fighter.

IMO If you unleashed all the classic 200lb heavyweights onto today’s "super heavyweights" the giants would get beat up and the enhanced BODY BUILDERS would have to take off 30lb just to compete.

There always was giants but back in the day with smaller gloves the 200 pounders used to crucify them because they were faster, hit as hard and set a better pace.
My answer to that question is Rocky would have a picnic.

what super heavys did rock fight in your opinion?
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:40 PM   #67
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Ok, you were saying you class a superheavyweight as someone as big as Foreman who i say was 217lb and not a 15 round fighter. Wouldn't you say there is a lot of artificial weight atributed to the modern SHW?

IMO SuperHeavyWeights are kind of artificial anyway. There are few exceptions. Its not so much they are getting bigger on their own, more because training has changed. Nobody is fighting a full 3 minuets, nobody is fighting 15 rounds. boxing was a young mans sport because peak fitness and a good pace was a big part of it.. It is not a young mans sport now because once everyone is carrying more weight it neutralises the advantage of youth.

maybe training to stay Leaner, harder and faster shortens a career? If so I still recon the leaner, faster harder guy beats the slower, clumsier tireder guy who is used to fighting other slower guys in most cases.
that might be true and im not agreeing or disagreeing to what your saying but the longer a guys career the more money he makes.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:41 PM   #68
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Even if you're to say that Foreman, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad could all be better at 220, that's still over 30 pounds more than Rocky. We aren't talking chumps here, we're talking great fighters who just happen to be bigger than him.

It's why when I consider h2h I place him in the cw division as I wouldn't call him a heavyweight by todays standards.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:07 PM   #69
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someone, anyone explain to me how marciano beats david tua or ike ibeabuchi, they have the same/better workrate, bigger, stronger, better chins, david tua half motivated would scrable rockys best 10 wins, i would hate to think what ibeabuchi would have done to former middleweights, and a 40 year old stationary joe louis. rockys great but rating him over all of times, is pointless there are too many big tough men who could match him for his best thing, workrate.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:16 PM   #70
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene View Post
How could they, given the competition.

I bet some of the genuflectors at Marciano's altar around here think Dempsey, Foreman, Louis, Ali, Holmes, Frazier, and on and on it goes, wouldnt have gone 49-0-0. You know you're dealing with hero worship when you have guys claiming Ezzard Charles wasnt shot to hell when he battled their man
I'm not sure if Foreman could've done it. He can beat all of Marciano's opponent, but I don't think he could've beat them all without losing the way he lost against Jimmy Young. He had stamina issues and would've had the same problem in Marciano times. He would've become the champ without a doubt, though.

Louis and Ali probably would've went 49-0. I'd bet on Holmes and Frazier to also do it. That's no knock on Marciano, these are all ATG, just like he is.

Last edited by Brownies; 09-18-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:40 PM   #71
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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someone, anyone explain to me how marciano beats david tua or ike ibeabuchi, they have the same/better workrate, bigger, stronger, better chins, david tua half motivated would scrable rockys best 10 wins, i would hate to think what ibeabuchi would have done to former middleweights, and a 40 year old stationary joe louis. rockys great but rating him over all of times, is pointless there are too many big tough men who could match him for his best thing, workrate.
As with many heavies, you have to take him in the context of his era. He fought all of the best available and beat them all.

What is interesting as a side note is all the old wags going on about the glory days and how horrible heavies are today, when in fact we need to calibrate our grades for heavies from the 1950's. The reality is that a strong heavyweight division is the exception not the norm. The great 1970's division was really only 1970-1975. The rest was pretty much garbage. The 1990's, which many rightly observe as being a golden age, was not considered that great during the 1990's with Holyfield being considered a weak champ, Tyson faded or incarcerated and Lewis... well, British.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:31 PM   #72
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Goodnight Irene,

Marciano beat better fighters than Dempsey and Jeffries did. Give it up.
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:34 PM   #73
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
As with many heavies, you have to take him in the context of his era. He fought all of the best available and beat them all.

What is interesting as a side note is all the old wags going on about the glory days and how horrible heavies are today, when in fact we need to calibrate our grades for heavies from the 1950's. The reality is that a strong heavyweight division is the exception not the norm. The great 1970's division was really only 1970-1975. The rest was pretty much garbage. The 1990's, which many rightly observe as being a golden age, was not considered that great during the 1990's with Holyfield being considered a weak champ, Tyson faded or incarcerated and Lewis... well, British.
totaly agree, rocky in his time did all he could, some of the posters here are talking about super heavys being 20 pounds over weight and the max a super heavy would be with rocky methods is 220, i dissagre, but thats still a massive man, and as for modern heavys not being able to hack the pace, like i said ibeabuchi still holds the most punches ever in a fight, and that was only a 12 rounder, david tua holds 2nd and 3rd in his ibeabuchi fight and the david izon fight. i think the heavyweight eras are..

john l to end of dempsey

then the transitional period of the 1930s/joe louis-floyd patterson


then liston/ali to the end of larry holmes title run,

i would say the super heavys are tyson-modern day.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:26 PM   #74
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Charles was the same kind of "shell" muhammad Ali was when he met Foreman. 32 year old #1 contender.
Hardly. Ali did not have 94 fights (actually less than half as many as Charles) and multiple KO losses under his belt. Ali was not a blown up middleweight . Ali was as fresh a 32 year old as Charles was a tired one ..
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:35 PM   #75
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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"Marciano had higher quality of competition than Dempsey & Jeffries,"

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