boxing
Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #181
Peter__1987
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Marciano breaks him down on the inside and makes him quit.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-05-2012, 01:42 PM   #182
Bummy Davis
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 10,008
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter__1987 View Post
Marciano breaks him down on the inside and makes him quit.

Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 03:23 PM   #183
choklab
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bad to the bone and sexy
Posts: 5,902
vCash: 500
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
But I'd consider that an awful lot of the reasoning we've heard in this thread for a Marciano victory is pure fantasy. From embarrassing cliches concerning Liston the bully to technical ****ysis entirely contradicted by film to lowballing the size difference, we've literally had it all in this thread. There have been one or two good posts but in general Marciano has been horribly low-balled by the people speaking for him IMO.
And your technical ****ysis consists of?? Oh yes, that’s right "Liston is bigger than Marciano" "Liston can maintain distance with the jab". Talk about LOW BALLING!!!

Nothing was entirely contradicted by film, You said Joe Louis still out jabbed Godoy even though the film proved Joe Louis’s usual jab was totally restricted in every possible way! Godoy didn’t use a jab himself so I assume you are lamely choosing to say “Louis won the war of jabs with a non jabber”. In truth the film proves that effective crowding restricts the effective use of an effective, functional jab. And this was entirely proven with film. Louis was not using it anything like what was normal for him in the rest of his career because of Godoy’s crowding.

Then because you are so ****ytically superior on boxing tactics than the rest of the wider world you deliberately avoided my point to suggest “Liston is Liston and Louis is Louis!” A huge cop out. Its like saying “you are right about the crowding effecting the jab but Godoy is not Marciano and Louis is not Liston”. ATG Low balling at its best.

well I cannot argue with your opinion, it is loaded with the un original, established maxim of "good big guys versus good small guys" which I fully accept as being only a slight majority view on this match up. I also understand you rightly feel that rocky fights back and that you expect him to be weaker in all departments but heart etc. However, it alarms me that you wont address the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in, climbs all over him inside then hits him clean at odd angles more often and with more power than any man he faced before. alarming because you whole heartedly acknowledge Harry greb can give away more pounds and do this with far less power - even though there is no film to fully study how he did this.
choklab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 05:51 PM   #184
Bummy Davis
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 10,008
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab View Post
And your technical ****ysis consists of?? Oh yes, that’s right "Liston is bigger than Marciano" "Liston can maintain distance with the jab". Talk about LOW BALLING!!!

Nothing was entirely contradicted by film, You said Joe Louis still out jabbed Godoy even though the film proved Joe Louis’s usual jab was totally restricted in every possible way! Godoy didn’t use a jab himself so I assume you are lamely choosing to say “Louis won the war of jabs with a non jabber”. In truth the film proves that effective crowding restricts the effective use of an effective, functional jab. And this was entirely proven with film. Louis was not using it anything like what was normal for him in the rest of his career because of Godoy’s crowding.

Then because you are so ****ytically superior on boxing tactics than the rest of the wider world you deliberately avoided my point to suggest “Liston is Liston and Louis is Louis!” A huge cop out. Its like saying “you are right about the crowding effecting the jab but Godoy is not Marciano and Louis is not Liston”. ATG Low balling at its best.

well I cannot argue with your opinion, it is loaded with the un original, established maxim of "good big guys versus good small guys" which I fully accept as being only a slight majority view on this match up. I also understand you rightly feel that rocky fights back and that you expect him to be weaker in all departments but heart etc. However, it alarms me that you wont address the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in, climbs all over him inside then hits him clean at odd angles more often and with more power than any man he faced before. alarming because you whole heartedly acknowledge Harry greb can give away more pounds and do this with far less power - even though there is no film to fully study how he did this.

great post
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #185
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,067
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab View Post
And your technical ****ysis consists of?? Oh yes, that’s right "Liston is bigger than Marciano" "Liston can maintain distance with the jab". Talk about LOW BALLING!!!
In a sense you are right. What Liston has to do is considerably easier to see than what Rocky has to do. But as to my technical ****ysis, here is what you have (deliberately, at a guess) missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Are you kidding? Every single fighter I can think of. I can't think of a single fighter who would miss three jabs then give up on the jab. The jab is the punch you throw. If the action brings the fighters closer then he might not use the jab, but chosing not to throw the jab because you've msised the jab? Doesn't happen.



OK, well maybe you didn't box at quite the same level as these fighters? Examples of fighters missing with the jab and continuing to throw it are so available on YT that it is impossible NOT to find one.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Above is Oscar-Floyd. Oscar misses with the first three jabs he throws and persists with it, using it to dominate the first half of the fight.



And yet Walcott, Moore and Charles all continued to throw jabs at Marciano and to score with them. Most of these men are outreached by Liston in terms of 6 or 8 inches.



You are presuming plenty here. First that Marciano can make Liston miss loads with the jab. Second, that even though a connect % for a good jab can be as low as 30%, meaning his missing 7/10 jabs is completely normal. So even if Rocky turns out to be as good as Ali in slipping the Liston jab - highly, highly debatable, arguably ridiculous - Liston will continue to throw jabs as he did in that fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Above is Liston-Ali. Listin misses jab after jab after jab, a % of as close to zero as you will ever see in a fight with two world-class jabbers. He hardly lands one. Still, he persists with it.

Even in the situation you bizarrely invisage, Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.

Whatever your own extensive experience as a boxer tells you.



I'm tyring, believe me.



Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Above is round one of Charles-Maricano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.

Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit. But here he has an additional problem, one you seem absolutely determined to overlook, namely range.

The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manuevers Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manueveres 10 inches further back. That's an horrific handicap, awful. No swarmer has ever overcome a handicap even rmotely like it. It's enormously difficult; an Everest of a problem. Liston has so much time to adjust to Rocky's moves, an extra half second in a sport where the fighters work in miliseconds.

It is a prohibitive physical disadvantage IMO.



As we've seen, what you are assuming is contrary to what exists on film.
 
 



It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside wehre repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs as Godoy bobs in.

God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control.

Regardless, Joe's eventual solution was the uppercut. Godoy had to take such pains to get inside that much shorter jab that he had to sell himself to that punch.

Against Liston, always ready with the upercut and quick to adjust, this is suicide.


Quote:
Nothing was entirely contradicted by film
Yes, it was. Completely unaddressed by yourself:

My refutation to your claim that "any fighter" and Liston specifically, would stop throwing the jab after missing with three jabs. On film we saw, Oscar miss Mayweather with jabs and continue you to jab, THEN Liston miss with multiple jabs and continue to jab.

Here, your point is refuted by film.

Your response: None.


I also provided film of Charles hitting Liston with 7/8 lead left hands. Your response was to say that some of these punches did not land flush (True) but also that Charles "turned a lot of these jabs into lead hooks". Not actually true - Charles landed lead left hooks, but these were different punches to the ones that I counted. Regardless, my question as to how this in any way helped your case (pointing out that Charles finding it EASIER to land HARDER PUNCHES TO LAND THAN THE JAB) I got no response.

I feel that the numerous number of left leads Charles managed to land on Marciano refutes your claim that he was some sort of specialist at sliding this punch.

Your response: None.


Quote:
You said Joe Louis still out jabbed Godoy
This is an outright lie. I said that the Louis jab "likely won him the fight." It did. Almost every time Louis feinted Godoy back was with the jab. Most of the outpunches he scored with were jabs. Louis won the fight based upon his outboxing. In close, things were close to 50.50.

But did he out jab Godoy? Of course he ****ing did! Count the jabs! Louis landed WAY more jabs than Godoy.

Quote:
even though the film proved Joe Louis’s usual jab was totally restricted in every possible way!
And I never disputed this at any point. You seem confused, I suggest a re-read of that post.

Quote:
Godoy didn’t use a jab himself
so Louis out-jabbed him then?

Quote:
so I assume you are lamely choosing to say “Louis won the war of jabs with a non jabber”.
I said nothing of the sort but have said that now because you've directly asked me (though it seems entirely irrelevant to me). READ what was WRITTEN instead of making what happened up in your head.

Quote:
In truth the film proves that effective crowding restricts the effective use of an effective, functional jab. And this was entirely proven with film.
And this has, at no time, been disputed by anyone in this thread (or on this forum, I should imagine).


Quote:
Then because you are so ****ytically superior on boxing tactics than the rest of the wider world you deliberately avoided my point to suggest “Liston is Liston and Louis is Louis!” A huge cop out.p
You are using film of Godoy versus Louis to "prove" that Marciano would beat Liston. I addressed the issue by pointing out to you the extreme - extreme - differences between the fighters in question (reach, uppercut, size, general skill level, ability to adjust, all areas where Liston outstrips Godoy). I don't feel this is a "cop out" at all, but rather addressing the point as directly as it is humanly possible to do so without coming to your house with diagrams and a dvd. The point was addressed as fully as it could possibly be! What on earth...

Quote:
Its like saying “you are right about the crowding effecting the jab but Godoy is not Marciano and Louis is not Liston”. ATG Low balling at its best.
...that's exactly what i'm saying, it's absolutely true, and the differences have been pointed out to you.

Quote:
However, it alarms me that you wont address the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in
I have addressed it choklab. I've addressed it in detail. I showed Marciano, on film, being hit clean, repeatedly, with the jab (and as you pointed out lead left hooks) by a fighter that has a reach TEN INCHES SHORTER than Liston's. I didn't address this notion of Liston becoming "frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in" because like the MAJORITY of people on the forum, I don't think that will happen.

Choklab, you are posting from a fantasy world. You are posting from a world where, and these are YOUR WORDS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab
What fighter would persevere with the forth consecutive jab when the last 3 missed? Because I have boxed.
Sheer stupidity, refuted (twice) by film. You haven't addressed either refutation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chocklab
Marciano will get past 90% of Listons jabs because he got past 90% of everyone’s jabs.
Sheer fantasy. Crazy talk. Marciano, I would bet, has never, ever been in a world title fight where he was hit with 10% or less of the jabs that were thrown at him. Refuted by film, unaddressed by yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab
If it misses rocky counters. If sonnys jab lands rocky still lands.
Utter nonsense. Liston has one of the better HW jabs. Although you obviously won't see it that way, i'm sure even you will admit that it was a good one. Above, you are saying that in spite of Marciano's 17" reach deficit, his going to counter EVERY JAB THAT LISTON THROWS??

My challenge to you now is to produce any Marciano fight - any one - that lasts more than a round where you can show him landing - let's say - 60% of the time when someone jabs at him. Keeping in mind that your original position is that he will land with 100% of his counters.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:32 PM   #186
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,067
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
great post
Yes, a great post absolutley riddled with inaccuracies and false accusations. Wonderful stuff.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:39 PM   #187
BillB
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 950
vCash: 500
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

I posted early in this thread slightly favoring Liston to win.

I've had second thoughts.

Rocky had something going for him that doesn't show in any statistical printout- that's doggedness and determination.
He found a way to win, even when he was beat. He said that he could never imagine himself losing a fight even when things looked the worst.

I'll pick Marciano over Liston and no, I wouldn't bet money on it.
BillB is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #188
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,067
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
A fighter like Frank Bruno who had been brutally KO'd 2 times before he fought Tyson may need a little more than a lack of fear, You are missing my point, Frank Bruno did not have the tools or the chin to beat Mike Tyson.

Well consider this. Your point is now:

To win, a fighter needs to be better than his opponent AND not be intimidated.

That's an almost a given (though there are exceptions...and we're indirectly dealing with one now). I'm going to try Bummy, one more time, to show you the poverty of your position and then give up. It's nothing personal.

Duran was intimidated and forced to quit by Sugar Ray Leoanrd. Two years later, shy of being out-boxed by Benitiez, he failed to deliver his best against a similar type and was beaten. Therefore I am picking Saddler to move up and beat him in the same way.

You think Duran poo'd himself? OK.

Willie Pep quit twice to Sandy Saddler. Saddler roughed him up and Pep couldn't handle it. Saddler was just too tough for Pep and Pep crumbled mentally. So I think that Rafael Marquez could move up and beat him mentally too.


It isn't often that a puncher is intimidated by a boxer, but it happened - maybe - when Liston met Ali. That doesn't mean that every time Liston meets someone who "isn't intimidated" fights him that they will beat him if they are talented. That's clearly nonsense. But most of all, the person you are picking to have this affect on Liston is the complete opposite of the one person in his career that may have made him feel this way. Liston being forced to quit by Ali may be related to a shoulder injury and a KO respectively (or mob fixes on both occasions) OR he may have dog quit, but if he did, he did it ONCE and to an opponent who represnts THE ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE OF WHAT MARICANO DOES FROM A PSYCHOLOGICAL POINT OF VIEW.

And it's nonsense on two levels. Because Ali, by his own admission was deeply intimidated the first time he fought Liston. All this bull**** about a guy not being intimidated by him is just that. He was intimidated. Deeply. And guess what? It counted for nothing on that rare occasion.

SO a guy who was intimidated COULD beat Liston. And a guy who WASN'T intimidated, might not - did not, on almost every occasion, because this idea that these professional HW's were all too terrified to fight him is just silly. Like Zora Folley is too frightened to fight Sonny Liston? No, no, no, these men deserve more respect than that.


Quote:
My point is when you are in with a fighter where there is an unknown element, like there was in the case of Holyfield- Tyson, Heart and strength of mind or even in the case of less thought of Douglas, who on the night against Tyson fought with a sense of purpose that he never had before or would have again. When you are in with that unknown element of heart and strength of mind it is very hard to predict the impact it will have on a fighter that has the big guy bully mentality.
It might be hard for you to predict, but in these instances, look what actually happened. Watch the Clark fight, watch the Machen fight, watch the Whitehurst fight, watch him fight. These guys aren't intimidated or terrified. They just get beat.

Quote:
You also are making much out of Liston's time in prison. A guy like Liston would more than likely not be challenged in prison
Well he was, if the stories repeated by various biographers are to be believed. Was I there? No. So I can't say it definitely happened. It's not that important though, my point is, and I have already stated it clearly, there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE that Liston was intimidated on any level by the "pit bull type" you (Accurately) depict Marciano to be. None.


Quote:
Sonny quit 2X vs Ali so you can tell me my opinion is childish but i am from the school of where there is smoke there may be fire.
Did he? And is there? You seem extremely confident. Note that of his three most serious biographers only ONE draws a direct conclusion concerning those losses and that conclusion was that Sonny DID NOT quit dog. Do I buy that? Not necessarily, and I don't think it matters, because your argument is not really valid even if he DID quit (like Langford, Frazier, Pep, or Duran), but you come to this argument with one of the most important points settled in a way that neither Mee, Tosches nor Steen, who have all written books on the man, could arrive at directly - that he had quit dog.

So you assume plenty here. Keep that in mind.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 12:55 PM   #189
techks
ATG list Killah!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ......Bit stalkerish to ask where I live don't ya think?
Posts: 9,592
vCash: 85
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Very comical to believe Liston will find Marciano hard to hit. Trust me I do feel the odds are in Liston's favor highly and I'm a bit crazy for having Marciano possibly winning but lets be honest. Marciano will get touched. I think the best prediction as I said earlier is him getting busted up down on the cards or not and Liston winning by 8-11 rd TKO. Removed from near prime Charles & Louis troubled Marciano I believe Liston will have multiplied success.

Also, Marciano would be the biggest puncher Liston has faced but he has to crowd and get inside. Liston would be stronger and his reach is still a huge factor as well as him fighting like it(unlike someone like P Will or Corrales). Would be a fun fight but I can only see a Liston mid rds TKO being the most reasonable. For what its worth I question Liston's legacy as a legend though I feel he'd do well H2H and Marciano is great(er, if ya consider Liston great) but a worse H2H fighter. Fantasy is H2H and we can only judge them based on what they did and I feel Marciano more accomplished but Liston more dangerous when motivated.

As far as intimidation, it shouldn't affect pro fighters although it does. Just saying "He'll intimidate him" takes away the credit that "bully" has done in the gym and worked on their craft. They're professionals. Many are scared/intimidated by the moment in the ring period. It depends on the result and if they **** themselves with fear and lose or ko/dominate their opponent.
techks is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 01:11 PM   #190
Surf-Bat
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,245
vCash: 500
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

A great exchange, but I think McGrain is pulling pretty far ahead here. Hard to beat the logic he's laying out.
Surf-Bat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 01:41 PM   #191
techks
ATG list Killah!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ......Bit stalkerish to ask where I live don't ya think?
Posts: 9,592
vCash: 85
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

****, meant to mention Liston's jab but I brought up reach so folks should get da point.
techks is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #192
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,067
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
A great exchange, but I think McGrain is pulling pretty far ahead here. Hard to beat the logic he's laying out.
Well since this long chat started, Liston has certainly streaked into the lead in the poll

But I don't feel i'm doing anything special laying this out, at all. Most of this is pretty obvious stuff IMO that nobody else has bothered to lay down or spell out is all. It's easy to look better than the poster you happen to be talking to when you are right, I find.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #193
yancey
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 561
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB View Post
I posted early in this thread slightly favoring Liston to win.

I've had second thoughts.

Rocky had something going for him that doesn't show in any statistical printout- that's doggedness and determination.
He found a way to win, even when he was beat. He said that he could never imagine himself losing a fight even when things looked the worst.

I'll pick Marciano over Liston and no, I wouldn't bet money on it.
I posted very early on that Liston would win by devastating knockout over Marciano.

I've thought about it some more and haven't changed my mind.

And I would bet money on it.
yancey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 03:56 PM   #194
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 13,523
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Mcgrain,

Willie Pep was past his prime when he fought Sandy Saddler and still managed to convincingly beat him one time, and win most of the rounds in the other fights before saddler got dirty and illegal forcing pep to sustain bad injuries. The first fight is an impressive win for Saddler.


Pep of pre 1945 beats Saddler everytime
SuzieQ49 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 04:21 PM   #195
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,848
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Mcgrain,

Willie Pep was past his prime when he fought Sandy Saddler and still managed to convincingly beat him one time, and win most of the rounds in the other fights before saddler got dirty and illegal forcing pep to sustain bad injuries. The first fight is an impressive win for Saddler.


Pep of pre 1945 beats Saddler everytime
Always good for a chuckle ..
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2015