Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

How many good fighters did Liston beat who were over 200 Lbs?

Liston beat-

Zora Folley KO3, 198 Lbs.

Eddie Machen W12, 196 Lbs.

Floyd Patterson KO1 x2, 189 and 194 Lbs.

Cleveland Williams (who actually kinda sucked) KO3 and KO2, 210 and 215 Lbs.

Who else?

Johnny Summerlin W8 and WSD8

Marty Marshall 2 out of 3, he weighed 180 Lbs when he beat Liston

Bert Whitehurst x2, W10 x2, 190 Lbs

Wayne Bethea, Frnakie Daniels, Ernie Cab, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King x2, Roy Harris, Albert Westphal, Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner? Who gives a shit?

Folley, Machen, and Patterson are good wins. All of them were under 200 Lbs. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (20 times). Folley was not very durable. Machen was pretty durable and did go the distance with Liston... he did get stopped in 1 round by Johansson though. Patterson had good power but Folley and Machen not so much.

[SuzieQ49]

How many good fighters did Liston beat who were over 200 Lbs?

Cleveland Williams 2x, Henry Clark, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn

[FlyingFrenchman]

Marciano beat-

Roland LaStarza W10 and KO11, 187 Lbs. Yes, the first fight was close... LaStarza was down in the 4th and Marciano lost a point for lowblows in the 8th.

Rex Layne KO6, 193 Lbs.

Joe Louis KO8, 214 Lbs. He had won his last 8, 3 by KO.

Lee Savold KO6, 200 Lbs.

Harry Matthews KO2, 180 Lbs.

Jersy Joe Walcott KO13 and KO1, 197 and 198 Lbs.

Ezzard Charles W15 and KO8, 186 and 193Lbs.

Don Cockell KO9, 205 Lbs.

Archie Moore KO9, 189 Lbs.

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Cleveland Williams 2x, Henry Clark, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn

I said GOOD

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Cleveland Williams 2x, Henry Clark, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn

Williams is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Clark was nothing special and neither was DeJohn. Valdes sucked plus he was washed up when he fought Liston.

[Danmann]

Originally Posted by yancey

It is amazing that 31 have Rocky knocking out Liston in the poll.

Wonder how many of them would have actually bet on it had the fight happened?

I'd bet it in a second.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

Williams is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Clark was nothing special and neither was DeJohn. Valdes sucked plus he was washed up when he fought Liston.

This is true

[choklab]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

Liston beat-

Zora Folley KO3, 198 Lbs.

Eddie Machen W12, 196 Lbs.

Floyd Patterson KO1 x2, 189 and 194 Lbs.

Cleveland Williams (who actually kinda sucked) KO3 and KO2, 210 and 215 Lbs.

Who else?

Johnny Summerlin W8 and WSD8

Marty Marshall 2 out of 3, he weighed 180 Lbs when he beat Liston

Bert Whitehurst x2, W10 x2, 190 Lbs

Wayne Bethea, Frnakie Daniels, Ernie Cab, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King x2, Roy Harris, Albert Westphal, Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner? Who gives a shit?

Folley, Machen, and Patterson are good wins. All of them were under 200 Lbs. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (20 times). Folley was not very durable. Machen was pretty durable and did go the distance with Liston... he did get stopped in 1 round by Johansson though. Patterson had good power but Folley and Machen not so much.

In a nut shell.

Liston was a great fighter with special talent and boundless potential but his resume and prowess should be based more on the core facts than spectacular wins against second stringers. Liston was heavier than a lot of the best and there was still only 3 great wins against 2 men without exhausting his era quite like Rocky.

Sonny was quite inactive after 1960. After great wins in 1960 there is no doubt Liston was proved the best from 1962-64 though.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by yancey

Oh, I get it now.

Rocky is going to "baffle" Sonny with "a little movement", huh?

Maybe some advanced stick and move technique, huh?

Would he maybe throw in an Ali Shuffle to further "baffle" Sonny?

Don't be silly,,,,,,,,

Nobody said Rocky would out-box Sonny with lightning quickness.

A little movement and angles, is what Rocky would have to do, to stay
in the bout.

Now winning the bout, that is a different story.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by yancey

Oh, I get it now.

Rocky is going to "baffle" Sonny with "a little movement", huh?

Maybe some advanced stick and move technique, huh?

Would he maybe throw in an Ali Shuffle to further "baffle" Sonny?

How about cracking Sonny on the chin harder than anyone was able, works wonders and there are other ways to get inside a talented jab, Vito Aunterfermo showed this in Hagler 1 and Vito did not have above average power or the subtle defensive skill of Marciano

[yancey]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

How about cracking Sonny on the chin harder than anyone was able, works wonders and there are other ways to get inside a talented jab, Vito Aunterfermo showed this in Hagler 1 and Vito did not have above average power or the subtle defensive skill of Marciano

Liston would find Rocky with a big punch or two or three before Rocky ever gets a sniff of a substained inside attack.

When Liston hurts Rocky (and that would happen) the battle turns one-sided and the end could be quite brutal.

Rocky has great heart, but he gets manhandled in this one.

Sorry.

[mr. magoo]

Funny how Liston has all of a sudden been reduced to a guy who simply sticks the jab in an effort to keep the smaller man off of him. Apparently some have forgotten that the power in that right hand of his is enough to send Marciano into the isles with the popcorn venders.

[yancey]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Funny how Liston has all of a sudden been reduced to a guy who simply sticks the jab in an effort to keep the smaller man off of him. Apparently some have forgotten that the power in that right hand of his is enough to send Marciano into the isles with the popcorn venders.

Albert Westphal likely would agree. He's probably still on the canvas.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Funny how Liston has all of a sudden been reduced to a guy who simply sticks the jab in an effort to keep the smaller man off of him. Apparently some have forgotten that the power in that right hand of his is enough to send Marciano into the isles with the popcorn venders.

I think Rocky had his share of guys who visited the isles with the pop corn venders as well, lets not forget that. No doubt Sonny had power but other than Patterson and Foley who were KO'd before and after and Williams and DeJohn who were KO'd before and after by 185lb guys .....who was his best quality KO, who was his best quality win?

Funny how Marciano is reduced to a guy that comes into the ring and puts out his chin to be hit and has the short arms of a Tyrannosaurus Rex with only strong legs to hold him up.

I think 43 guys would and did say those short arms were effective indeed and we know the other 6 (some of them the same guys) were never as good in the rematch or subsequent fights.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

I think Rocky had his share of guys who visited the isles with the pop corn venders as well, lets not forget that. No doubt Sonny had power but other than Patterson and Foley who were KO'd before and after and Williams and DeJohn who were KO'd before and after by 185lb guys .....who was his best quality KO, who was his best quality win?

Funny how Marciano is reduced to a guy that comes into the ring and puts out his chin to be hit and has the short arms of a Tyrannosaurus Rex with only strong legs to hold him up.

I think 43 guys would and did say those short arms were effective indeed and we know the other 6 (some of them the same guys) were never as good in the rematch or subsequent fights.

I'm not doubting Rocky's power. You guys just seem to think that Liston's entire fate is based on him controlling Marciano with the jab. You are then proceding to work off that to illustrate how Rocky would slip the jab, get inside and pummel Liston like he's a defensless bitch being raped, which is utterly ridiculous.