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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-06-2013, 08:31 PM   #391
richdanahuff
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Seen the video and all of Rocky's fights a million times. He was not as easy to hit as advertised. Walcott even commented on that. However, he was wildly inconsistent in employing these virtues. He also too often swung for the fences, had bad footing and left himself amateurishly open. A prime Liston was pretty accurate with his jab and especially his uppercut. That could spell trouble.

Look, this is a tough, tough fight for both guys and over the years i have gone back and forth on it. No one is right and everyone is right on this one.

No doubt he was limited in the ring as far as boxing ability he wasn't a boxer he was a fighter. I think that Charlie Goldman should be given credit for designing a style that would maximize his strengths. I am not saying he intended to be akward he just wasn't a graceful athlete in the ring. I think his no rythum akward style added power to his ability to slip punches. I also think his akward movements tempted good fighters to commit to punches they otherwise wouldn't have. I do not think his sense of balance and low center of gravity are given enough credit even if it looked ugly.

At the end of the day no one here can dispute Liston had better boxing ability and noone can dispute his size advantage. What is in dispute is that intangible that made Rocky a winner and why he would find a way to win when the fight got into deep water. Rocky was willing to tread where most fighters refuse to tread to win in spite of his lack of natural boxing talent.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:05 PM   #392
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Marciano was a special fighter, no doubt. His focus was unnerving. He was always on task.

I dony care how big, strong and skilled you are, being in the ring with a guy that relentless, fit and focussed on kicking your ass has to rattle you.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:16 PM   #393
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Did Liston fold up when his jaw was broke ,or did he carry on to the end?

Did Liston fold up when the hardest punching heavyweight around broke his nose, or did he fight back and stop him? TWICE!

Once again you pick, an old past prime Liston to make your case.

Ever heard of the expression level playing field?
It's prime for prime!

According to Moore's mother he was two years older than he admitted to , that makes him 41 when he fought Marciano.

Moore admitted he had no legs for that fight and hadn't had for years .
He was a natural LHVY who capitalised on the paucity of the heavy weight talent to extend his career. Eight months prior to the Marciano fight, and in Moore's previous one Archie scaled inside the 175lbs limit in a LHvy title fight with Bobo Olson Three of Moore's last six opponents , prior to his heavyweight title challenge ,were light heavies.
Do you think he would do any better against Liston than he did with Rocky?
I very much doubt he would have floored Sonny ,as he did Marciano.

Marciano needs to apologise for nothing , the point is when posters make statements like,"There is not much evidence that it was the kind of jab that was effective against Awkward crouching crowding opponents trained by Charlie Goldman".The obvious response is

" There is zero evidence that Marciano could handle a 200lbs plus heavweight with an 84" jab who could match him for power,and was , in his prime". And I made it.


Sam Silverman who promoted a lot of Marciano's early fights said Rocky could have just as hard a time fighting also rans as top contenders.

Marciano NEVER beat a big heavyweight who was his equal in power, Liston did .
The four names I mentioned ,Baker,Wallace,Henry, Valdes , were rated heavies before Marciano was champ he met None of them.I would pick him to beat them but then I would pick Liston to beat them, and he is proven.against big heavies.


Valdez lost 2 fights to Archie Moore in an elimination to fight Marciano at that time so Moore the better & more dangerous man that time period got the title shot and Valdes had a chance to be opponent # 50 but he lost badly and dropped in the 10th by Bob Satterfield

Baker was Ko'd in 1 by Satterfeild and KO in 8 by Moore

Clarence Henry was beaten by Harold Johnson and Archie Moore and Moore TKO'd Johnson (Archie was # 1 contender & light heavy champ

Coley Wallace was dominated and KO'd badly by Ezzard Charles in a dominating KO of the Big man and Charles KO'd Satterfield in 2 in an electrifying KO...Charles got the shot being the # 1 contender on the virtue of these 2 dominant KO's

If it is Cleveland Williams you refer to as the heavyweight with equal power to Liston it did not show up on his record vs quality heavyweights and he also was Ko'd badly by the 5"10 Bob Satterfield in his 32 fight


Prior to the title Marciano Ko'd plently of bigger heavier guys when he was told to fight Louis (his Idol) Joe was an older big man but Marciano brutalized him in a sad fight (Louis was past his best but he still KO'd Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition fight prior to the Rocky fight and was beating top contenders and only lost to Charles which is more than I can say about Valdes who lost 4 consecutive fights in 1953

Marciano beat the better men and ducked nor feared no man, fight 5 # 1 contender and one # 2 is pretty strong...

I wonder what you would be saying had he fought Valdez who lost to Moore 2x or if he fought Baker who was Ko'd by Moore and avoided fighting Moore, or if he fought Wallace who was dominated & KO'd by Charles and did not fight Charles (who stopped Wallace

Marciano beat the best of his era, he was sole Champ and rematched tough fights against some very skilled and experienced men who had known power & pin-point power as well
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:09 AM   #394
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
Valdez lost 2 fights to Archie Moore in an elimination to fight Marciano at that time so Moore the better & more dangerous man that time period got the title shot and Valdes had a chance to be opponent # 50 but he lost badly and dropped in the 10th by Bob Satterfield

Baker was Ko'd in 1 by Satterfeild and KO in 8 by Moore

Clarence Henry was beaten by Harold Johnson and Archie Moore and Moore TKO'd Johnson (Archie was # 1 contender & light heavy champ

Coley Wallace was dominated and KO'd badly by Ezzard Charles in a dominating KO of the Big man and Charles KO'd Satterfield in 2 in an electrifying KO...Charles got the shot being the # 1 contender on the virtue of these 2 dominant KO's

If it is Cleveland Williams you refer to as the heavyweight with equal power to Liston it did not show up on his record vs quality heavyweights and he also was Ko'd badly by the 5"10 Bob Satterfield in his 32 fight


Prior to the title Marciano Ko'd plently of bigger heavier guys when he was told to fight Louis (his Idol) Joe was an older big man but Marciano brutalized him in a sad fight (Louis was past his best but he still KO'd Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition fight prior to the Rocky fight and was beating top contenders and only lost to Charles which is more than I can say about Valdes who lost 4 consecutive fights in 1953

Marciano beat the better men and ducked nor feared no man, fight 5 # 1 contender and one # 2 is pretty strong...

I wonder what you would be saying had he fought Valdez who lost to Moore 2x or if he fought Baker who was Ko'd by Moore and avoided fighting Moore, or if he fought Wallace who was dominated & KO'd by Charles and did not fight Charles (who stopped Wallace

Marciano beat the best of his era, he was sole Champ and rematched tough fights against some very skilled and experienced men who had known power & pin-point power as well

All Louis had left was the remnants of his jab ,and he found Marciano regualrly and consistantly with it.
I would be saying he fought big heavyweights who were rated contenders , but as he didn't, I am not.
I see you didn't comment on my posting that Liston fought with a broken nose, and carried on with a broken jaw, so much for a prime Liston folding under pressure.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:10 AM   #395
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Scrap iron Johnson was about as hard to hit as any other heavyweight who was knocked out 12 times. Scrap iron had been knocked out by Sonnys own knock out victims like Ernie cab. What that sarap iron fight proved, in fact all it proved, was sonny could take longer to knock out the same guys his earlier victims could also knock out..
.
Got to go address this later.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-07-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:30 AM   #396
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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All Louis had left was the remnants of his jab ,and he found Marciano regualrly and consistantly with it.
I would be saying he fought big heavyweights who were rated contenders , but as he didn't, I am not.
No Bummy is right. If Rocky fought these big men rather than the best men, you would complain. I can hear it "rather than face the best fighters who knocked out the big men, marciano kept the fighting bigger men his #1 contenders kept beating but it proved nothing because he refused to fight his #1 chalengers!" Or "we never got to see how Rocky would get on with sharp, fast precise box punchers like Walcott, Charles and Moore. He kept facing the men they beat who Al weil knew could not match Rocky for pace, were too slow to use their power and bigger targets for Rocky to hit"

Regarding the Louis jab, I have exhausted myself describing how old Joe was forced to revert to using a defensive flicking jab to survive. There was no room for his regular step in jab against Marciano. The Godoy fights taught him that. Marciano so crowded Louis he could not work off that kind of defensive jab and Rocky broke him down. Sure he was old but the fight still showed technical difficulties and restrictions Rocky forced on a higher rated, active contender who earned his spot in the ratings by knocking out rated contenders favourite to beat him.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:29 AM   #397
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post

Regarding the Louis jab, I have exhausted myself describing how old Joe was forced to revert to using a defensive flicking jab to survive. There was no room for his regular step in jab against Marciano. The Godoy fights taught him that. Marciano so crowded Louis he could not work off that kind of defensive jab and Rocky broke him down. Sure he was old but the fight still showed technical difficulties and restrictions Rocky forced on a higher rated, active contender who earned his spot in the ratings by knocking out rated contenders favourite to beat him.
You just lost all credence for me. Sorry. This is just the most pathetic rationalization I have ever seen on this board.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #398
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

I don't like criciticising Rocky due to his willingness to take on anyone and defend vs contenders always ranked top 2/3. But as it's been mentioned to death on ESB with nobody, apparently, questioning it, both La Starza and Charles were not ranked #1 in Ring when their fights with Marciano were agreed...just thought i'd put that one to bed. Al Weill said the fight was made because Ez was the "bigger draw" rather than the #1 ranked fighter- who was Nino Valdes. Charles was moved up to #1 after the fight was agreed. Valdes spent enough time at #1 (and #2) to deserve a crack at Rocky, he was certainly the #1 ranked contender longer than La Starza (who was #2 when the fight with Rocky was signed) and was ranked ahead of ****ell when their fight was signed. He definitely deserved a shot.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:48 AM   #399
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by richdanahuff View Post
No doubt he was limited in the ring as far as boxing ability he wasn't a boxer he was a fighter. I think that Charlie Goldman should be given credit for designing a style that would maximize his strengths. I am not saying he intended to be akward he just wasn't a graceful athlete in the ring. I think his no rythum akward style added power to his ability to slip punches. I also think his akward movements tempted good fighters to commit to punches they otherwise wouldn't have. I do not think his sense of balance and low center of gravity are given enough credit even if it looked ugly.

At the end of the day no one here can dispute Liston had better boxing ability and noone can dispute his size advantage. What is in dispute is that intangible that made Rocky a winner and why he would find a way to win when the fight got into deep water. Rocky was willing to tread where most fighters refuse to tread to win in spite of his lack of natural boxing talent.

This is a good post but what so many refuse to comprehend regarding Marciano was that his career was comprised of a perfect storm a strong determined fighter, small and old opponents many still very good but none in their prime and the fact that Rocky was very smart and quit when he did.

Yes Valdez lost a disputable decision to Moore and Moore got to fight Rocky and Valdez lost to others but AL and Charlie were very happy Rocky never had to fight Nino because of styles and size. What irks me is the delusional "Rocky had the something special crap" which is used as a device to justify a complete lack of fact and logic Rocky had no more heart than a dozen of the top heavyweight greats or even a Leon Spinks who fought his heart out even when crushed Rocky's timing was perfect. Louis, Charles and Walcott were old. Liston was still years away. He came up in a perfect pocket of time. He never hard to face a large prime destroyer that posed a stylistic nightmare and huge physical disadvantages to overcome like a prime Foreman, Tyson, Lewis or Liston. He never even had to fight a prime swarmer/puncher of his own size and talent like a Frazier or a Dempsey. He never had to fight a large, prime master boxer/puncher like an Ali or Holmes. If he did all the heart in the world would not have saved him but only maximized the beating he would have taken.

Rocky was a gutty, tough, hard punching 185 pound fighter , extremely well conditioned, had a chin that stood up to what he faced and gave his all every time out. He won through conditioning and enforcing his superior strength and power on opponents that could not match it over a 15 round distance. These are advantages he would lose against the best bigger and stronger men. GIve the guy his due, stop romanticizing a fighter and an era and get on with it
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:53 AM   #400
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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You just lost all credence for me. Sorry. This is just the most pathetic rationalization I have ever seen on this board.
What's wrong with saying old Louis was rated, earned his rating by beating curent contenders and was favoured to beat Marciano? What's wrong with saying Louis was forced to use a defensive jab rather than the regular jab he was famous for?

Unless it's not true, I don't understand what is pathetic about pointing that out?

I already said Louis was past his best. I'm just saying he was still a worth while contender at that time. Because he was.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:02 AM   #401
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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He never hard to face a large prime destroyer that posed a stylistic nightmare and huge physical disadvantages to overcome like a prime Foreman, Tyson, Lewis or Liston. He never even had to fight a prime swarmer/puncher of his own size and talent like a Frazier or a Dempsey. He never had to fight a large, prime master boxer/puncher like an Ali or Holmes. If he did all the heart in the world would not have saved him but only maximized the beating he would have taken. …
So when exactly did Sonny Liston achieve all of this? What a tall order for any champion!

Has there been a champion in history who beat a Foreman, Lewis, a Tyson then wiped the floor with "even a Frazier or a Dempsey" and a Larry Holmes???

Last edited by choklab; 12-07-2013 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:40 AM   #402
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Brutal match. Liston bigger stronger, longer reach with a better jab. Liston stops him late.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #403
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
All Louis had left was the remnants of his jab ,and he found Marciano regualrly and consistantly with it.
I would be saying he fought big heavyweights who were rated contenders , but as he didn't, I am not.
I see you didn't comment on my posting that Liston fought with a broken nose, and carried on with a broken jaw, so much for a prime Liston folding under pressure.

Marty Marshall was 178 lbs and although Marshall won that fight Marshall only had 11 KO'd in 38 fight in which he lost 13 fights and drew 2 x, Marty was not a ferocious guy he was clowning with Liston and Sonny opened his mouth to talk back and he got hit with it open ( funny point but Marty Marshall was one of the few who picked Ali to beat Sonny Liston)


...credit is given to anyone who enters the ring but I dont think Liston faced any punchers in Marciano's class or any real Dangerous punchers with skill (Mike DeJohn could punch but was limited and KO'd by others).....with Ali it was a mental thing IMO and with Leotis Martin, LT got off the floor and got in close to spark Sonny bad but yea Sonny was older and Leotis was a fringe contender but had decent power but no where in the class of Marciano as a puncher or an inside banger and Leotis had been stopped by Jimmy Ellis and beaten pretty clearly by Oscar Bonavena the year before

Liston had the look of a monster but Marciano was the monster that kept coming
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:52 AM   #404
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I dont think Liston faced any punchers in Marciano's class
Do you think that Marciano faced any punchers in the class of a prime Liston?
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:03 PM   #405
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I don't like criciticising Rocky due to his willingness to take on anyone and defend vs contenders always ranked top 2/3. But as it's been mentioned to death on ESB with nobody, apparently, questioning it, both La Starza and Charles were not ranked #1 in Ring when their fights with Marciano were agreed...just thought i'd put that one to bed. Al Weill said the fight was made because Ez was the "bigger draw" rather than the #1 ranked fighter- who was Nino Valdes. Charles was moved up to #1 after the fight was agreed. Valdes spent enough time at #1 (and #2) to deserve a crack at Rocky, he was certainly the #1 ranked contender longer than La Starza (who was #2 when the fight with Rocky was signed) and was ranked ahead of ****ell when their fight was signed. He definitely deserved a shot.


Valdes lost 4 fights in 1953, they were to Harold Johnson,Archie Moore, Billy Gillian, & Bob Baker...Valdes had a good run in 1954 but most thought he lost to Archie McBride...then he fought an elimination with Archie and lost so Archie got the shot at Marciano by virtue of the victory

...Valdes was given another chance to redeem himself and got the shot at Marciano for fight # 50 but he was battered and dropped by Bob Satterfield and lost credibility and appeal for the shot with that loss and Satterfield was too erratic and recently KO'd in 2 by EZZ to be marketable...there were no $$$ fights left for Rocky to stay interested thus he retired

IMO and the opinion of a few experts Valdes would have been a fight in which Marciano would have looked impressive in scoring his 50-win with 44 KO's but Valdes blew the chance again like he previously did against Moore 2X
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