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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #421
Bummy Davis
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
"Louis was past his best but he still KO'd Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition fight prior to the Rocky fight and was beating top contenders and only lost to Charles which is more than I can say about Valdes who lost 4 consecutive fights in 1953"

Louis had 9 fights on his comeback , before facing Marciano, in his final fight , 7 of them went the distance.

Louis had two exhibitions with Valdes.
The first was on Jan 28th 1949, it went the 4 rds distance with no knockdowns.
The second was on Feb 7th 1950, it went the 4rds distance with no knockdowns.

Louis fought Marciano on Oct 26th 1951.
This names Valdes as the top contender for October 1954.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The Ring named Valdes as the fighter who had made the most progress the year 1953!


Williams was 21 years old ,and a last minute substitute in the Satterfield fight.

Charles had won just 2 of his last 4 fights when he challenged Marciano.

He was not the no 1 contender when he signed to fight Marciano, Valdes was.

Valdes lost 3 fights in 1953 , to Harold Johnson by dec
Archie Moore by dec and Bob Baker by dec , he then went on an 11 consecutive winning streak, not losing until May 1955 ,[to Moore], among his victims was Charles,Agramonte,Sys,Neuhas ,and Jackson. He was the no 1 contender well long enough to deserve a fight against Marciano but never got one.

Valdes lost 4 in row, one was at the end of 1952, the other 3 were in 1953 Johnson,Moore,Gilliam & Baker but on 2/20/54 he won a split decision over Archie McBride in Palacio de Deportes, Havana, Cuba and most felt he lost, then he had an elimination to qualify to fight Marciano because he lost again to Archie Moore again 5-02-55 and Moore got the title shot on 9-22-55...What dont you understand and then unless it is not clear he was given the opportunity to fight Marciano again but had to get past the erratic Bob Satterfield but Nino lost badly in fact he was dropped in the last round to cap things off and lose the chance to fight Marciano.

Because Archie Moore was also Light heavyweight Champ and had beaten Valdes 2x as well as Johnson and KO 8 Baker (who beat Nino Valdes ) he was the man in line to fight Marciano, some of the rating could not put Archie in both spots but he was #1 contender and Light heavyweight champ
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:58 AM   #422
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Scrap Iron Johnson went the distance with Jerry Quarry,Manuel Ramos, and Joe Frazier.
Scrap iron johnson was a chopping block for experienced fighters. He bore no resemblance to Rocky Marciano. He was no harder to hit than any man who was also knocked out 12 times. Johnson was a trial horse to provide rounds for new pros. The rounds he gave those youngsters flatter him. He was doing a job. Decent fighters who were not looking for rounds never had a problem. Jerry quarry also knocked scrap iron out in two rounds as did juergen blin and Johnny Carroll. Many unremarkable heavyweights Kayoed Johnson quicker than Liston like Todd Herring, Ernie Cab and Donnie fleeman . It is unsurprising Liston could use his jab on Johnson because everyone did. The only surprise is how resilient Johnson was against Liston. Johnson was a brave journeyman who proved without fear he could give Liston rounds coming forward. I think Marciano could do better. Is that unfair to ask?
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:52 AM   #423
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Scrap iron johnson was a chopping block for experienced fighters. He bore no resemblance to Rocky Marciano. He was no harder to hit than any man who was also knocked out 12 times. Johnson was a trial horse to provide rounds for new pros. The rounds he gave those youngsters flatter him. He was doing a job. Decent fighters who were not looking for rounds never had a problem. Jerry quarry also knocked scrap iron out in two rounds as did juergen blin and Johnny Carroll. Many unremarkable heavyweights Kayoed Johnson quicker than Liston like Todd Herring, Ernie Cab and Donnie fleeman . It is unsurprising Liston could use his jab on Johnson because everyone did. The only surprise is how resilient Johnson was against Liston. Johnson was a brave journeyman who proved without fear he could give Liston rounds coming forward. I think Marciano could do better. Is that unfair to ask?
Scrap Iron Johnson was 5'9" tall my whole point was Liston had no trouble landing his jab on a man shorter than Marciano. no one compared Johnson with Marciano. Johnson went seven rds with Liston, and seven with Foreman.Now you say fighters let him stay to get rounds in . BS!
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:01 AM   #424
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Why doesn't anyone agree with me that Liston wins by decision? Rocky was too tough to be knocked out, and liston was too methodical to go for the knockout..he loved to sit back, jab, box, and pick his spots.
Because Rocky was a bleeder ,who was in danger of being stopped on cuts twice,and he would be facing a telephone poll ,booming jab?
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:19 AM   #425
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Valdes lost 4 in row, one was at the end of 1952, the other 3 were in 1953 Johnson,Moore,Gilliam & Baker but on 2/20/54 he won a split decision over Archie McBride in Palacio de Deportes, Havana, Cuba and most felt he lost, then he had an elimination to qualify to fight Marciano because he lost again to Archie Moore again 5-02-55 and Moore got the title shot on 9-22-55...What dont you understand and then unless it is not clear he was given the opportunity to fight Marciano again but had to get past the erratic Bob Satterfield but Nino lost badly in fact he was dropped in the last round to cap things off and lose the chance to fight Marciano.

Because Archie Moore was also Light heavyweight Champ and had beaten Valdes 2x as well as Johnson and KO 8 Baker (who beat Nino Valdes ) he was the man in line to fight Marciano, some of the rating could not put Archie in both spots but he was #1 contender and Light heavyweight champ
You look on Box rec, then come back and spout it like its some revelation.
It's very clear Valdes was the number one contender long enough to have warranted a title shot,I think given one, he would have lost , but that is not the point.

Youv'e made three assertions that I have shown to be wrong but you havent mentioned them again.
1".Liston folds under pressure ."

I cited his jaw being broke early in a fight, and the fact that he carried on and lost the decision.He had his nose broke by power puncher Williams but came back to ko him.

2."Louis kod Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition shortly before Louis fought Marciano. "

Louis had two exhibitions with Valdes both went the 4 rds distance without a ko or any knockdows,and the last one was one year and eight months before Louis fought Rocky.

3".Marciano fought 5 number one contenders ."
He didnt neither, Lastarza, or Charles were number one contenders when he signed to fight them.
All you, and Choklab have offered by way of a coherent argument for Marciano beating Liston,is hero worship .

Last edited by mcvey; 12-08-2013 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:45 AM   #426
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Scrap Iron Johnson was 5'9" tall my whole point was Liston had no trouble landing his jab on a man shorter than Marciano. no one compared Johnson with Marciano. Johnson went seven rds with Liston, and seven with Foreman.Now you say fighters let him stay to get rounds in . BS!
Johnson goes seven with Liston, lasted just two with Johnny Carroll but Marciano can't cope with Listons jab? Easy to hit and knock out Johnson walked through it and finished on his feet!
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:02 AM   #427
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Because Rocky was a bleeder ,who was in danger of being stopped on cuts twice,and he would be facing a telephone poll ,booming jab?
Nobody on film hit marciano with that kind of jab. A fast defensive stay away jab yes. Not the strong liston type jab you can work off.

Rockys style invited jabs but because of his low awkward clumsy stance it was difficult to nail him cleanly at long range with one. The jab would lose something aiming down and would bounce off elbows or shoulders before penetrating the target. And then you are in his range for Rockys reply.

The weight on the front foot when you come in with a Liston jab makes it difficult to step off for the follow up if it dosnt already knock the victim back first time. It requires a clean impact each time otherwise you are in danger of getting tangled up with the mauler.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:20 AM   #428
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Johnson goes seven with Liston, lasted just two with Johnny Carroll but Marciano can't cope with Listons jab? Easy to hit and knock out Johnson walked through it and finished on his feet!
You have a penchant for putting words in other posters mouths.ie Marciano gets blown away by Liston.

Marciano can't cope wth Liston's jab.


What in fact those who disagree with you say is , in response to you saying ,Liston would have great difficulty in landing his jab on Rocky ,is that he had no such difficulty landing it on men shorter than Marciano.

Marciano is facing a man bigger,stronger ,heavier, equally hard hitting ,and one with a telescopic reach advantage whom also possesed a great uppercut, the nemesis of the croucher . Therefore Liston is stylistically all wrong for Marciano, and that hence in all probability he will be stopped via tko caused by facial damage.

n.b. Liston was over 40 when he fought Johnson ,a prime Foreman could do no better against Scrap Iron.

Last edited by mcvey; 12-08-2013 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:20 AM   #429
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You have a penchant for putting words in other posters mouths.ie Marciano gets blown away by Liston.

Marciano can't cope wth Liston's jab.


What in fact those who disagree with you say is , in response to you saying ,Liston would have great difficulty in landing his jab on Rocky ,is that he had no such difficulty landing it on men shorter than Marciano.

Marciano is facing a man bigger,stronger ,heavier, equally hard hitting ,and one with a telescopic reach advantage whomalso possesed a great uppercut, the nemesis of the croucher . Therefore Liston is stylistically all wrong for Marciano, and that hence in all probability he will be stopped via tko caused by facial damage.

n.b. Liston was over 40 when he fought Johnson ,a prime Foreman could do no better against Scrap Iron.
How many jabs did Frank Bruno land, nay how many jabs did Frank Bruno attempt against Mike Tyson? The problem with putting all the weight into a strong offensive jab against a prime, shorter WORLD CLASS presure fighter is that it is difficult to land it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:51 AM   #430
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
How many jabs did Frank Bruno land, nay how many jabs did Frank Bruno attempt against Mike Tyson? The problem with putting all the weight into a strong offensive jab against a prime, shorter WORLD CLASS presure fighter is that it is difficult to land it.
Tyson had far better head movement than Marciano, quicker foot work and miles fstaer hand speedand a better defence .This is a silly comparison. Liston had a world class uppercut.
I suppose because of Marciano's mystical defence Sonny can't land that on Marciano either

I'm sorry, you've offered nothing to substantiate your pick.
You're good guy ,and a good poster ,but this is fan-boyism at it's worst.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:33 AM   #431
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Tyson had far better head movement than Marciano, quicker foot work and miles fstaer hand speedand a better defence .This is a silly comparison. Liston had a world class uppercut.
I suppose because of Marciano's mystical defence Sonny can't land that on Marciano either

I'm sorry, you've offered nothing to substantiate your pick.
You're good guy ,and a good poster ,but this is fan-boyism at it's worst.
McVey … I'm assuming you have a touch of time to fill and are just staying sharp because you know you will never get a Marciano guy to give an inch ( with only 67" they need every one they have ) … To them Rocky simply defies fact, logic and common sense possessing some special "quality" be it will, skill, heart, drive, focus, conditioning, ect unique in the history of a heavyweight division where for everyone else, even the other greatest of the division's greats, size, speed, weight, style, reach and quality and age of opposition are factors. To question this rational you are automatically branded a hater no matter how many times you give Rocky justified credit. This breed of followers are as zealous as any in the sport, their position and reasoning for the most part tribal. Still, have fun punching the bag …
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:21 AM   #432
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh View Post
I don't like criciticising Rocky due to his willingness to take on anyone and defend vs contenders always ranked top 2/3. But as it's been mentioned to death on ESB with nobody, apparently, questioning it, both La Starza and Charles were not ranked #1 in Ring when their fights with Marciano were agreed...just thought i'd put that one to bed. Al Weill said the fight was made because Ez was the "bigger draw" rather than the #1 ranked fighter- who was Nino Valdes. Charles was moved up to #1 after the fight was agreed. Valdes spent enough time at #1 (and #2) to deserve a crack at Rocky, he was certainly the #1 ranked contender longer than La Starza (who was #2 when the fight with Rocky was signed) and was ranked ahead of ****ell when their fight was signed. He definitely deserved a shot.
-Sounds like you were using the annual ratings, which are unreliable in the early 50s because the scene was too helter skelter with constant fights between contenders and the ratings shifting monthly. Roland and Charles were RING #1.

-Charles was moved to #1 after beating Satterfield. The fight was an official eliminator.



-Here are the RING Monthly ratings posted by Edward Moebius:

Ring Rankings in October, 1953, issue to August 18.

Champ--Rocky Marciano

1--Roland LaStarza
2--Ezzard Charles
3--Dan Bucceroni
4--Nino Valdes
5--Tommy Harrison
6--Bob Satterfield
7--Heinz Neuhaus
8--Don ****ell
9--Earl Walls
10-Harry Matthews

Losses by LaStarza, Charles, and Bucceroni and Valdes wins put Nino at #1 at the end of the year, but he fell out of the #1 spot in early 1954 when his management avoided a rematch with Charles, Charles ko'd Satterfield in the elimination fight Valdes skirted, and Valdes looked bad in barely beating Archie McBride. Charles then took over the #1 spot again.

Ring Magazine rankings August, 1954 issue

Champ--Rocky Marciano

1--Ezzard Charles
2--Nino Valdes
3--Don ****ell
4--Jimmy Slade
5--Roland LaStarza
6--Hurricane Jackson
7--Dan Bucceroni
8--Bob Baker
9--Earl Walls
10-Heinz Neuhaus

After the two Marciano-Charles fights, Valdes regained the #1 ranking after ko'ing Jackson. However, Archie Moore, who had beaten Valdes and ko'd Harold Johnson and Baker, began demanding a fight with Marciano, and was viewed by most as the real #1 contender. He was matched with Valdes in May, 1955 and beat him again, dropping Valdes out of the top spot permanently. Of Marciano's opponents, LaStarza, Charles, and Moore were all rated above Valdes when he fought them. Only ****ell, at #2, was rated under Valdes.



-Yeah, Co ckell was #2 when Marciano fought him and Valdez was ranked ahead. The reasoning was that Rocky needed a tune up for his training lay off and recently repaired nose. Considering how poor of a performance it was from Rocky, they were not wrong in that reasoning. Valdez or Johnson would have got the next shot but both were defeated by Moore by the time Rocky was scheduled for another defense. Moore was the most deserving contender to Marciano's crown with wins over Henry, Johnson, Baker, and Valdez.

Last edited by The Mongoose; 12-08-2013 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:24 AM   #433
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Tyson had far better head movement than Marciano, quicker foot work and miles fstaer hand speedand a better defence .This is a silly comparison. Liston had a world class uppercut.
I suppose because of Marciano's mystical defence Sonny can't land that on Marciano either

I'm sorry, you've offered nothing to substantiate your pick.
You're good guy ,and a good poster ,but this is fan-boyism at it's worst.
It's not fan boyism, otherwise I would not be able to come up with technological analysis. Fan boyism is when a great fighter is dismissed on size alone.

Sonnys uppercut is a more useful weapon against Marciano than his jab. I give you that. I can at least see that now you are actually thinking about the style clash rather than just dismissing Rocky without regard.

Fan boys think Rocky was invincible. Rocky was not invincible, I'm just picking him over Liston.

Rocky just has the edge because I feel he would be too awkward for Liston. I feel Sonny would not be able to do what he wanted, it would be very competative. They would both be getting tangled up inside where Sonnys full strength and Power would be neutralised. Sonny would become frustrated and outworked. I see Sonny getting hit more than he was used to and I see Rocky struggle too. The bottom line is IMO Most of all I see Marciano fighting his fight and I don't see Liston fighting his fight. That's why I feel Rocky has the edge.

Usually when two punchers meet the one with the best chin wins but its not just as simple as that because Sonny is also difficult to fight, is bigger and has longer arms. I get that. But there is no getting away from the one round knockdown by Ali and other events that actually demonstrate how Sonny coped in certain situations Marciano was capable of taking him into. There is no getting away from the fact that Rocky was a great fighter who if beaten by anyone it would need better credentials than what is on offer from the lesser great Charles Sonny Liston.

Last edited by choklab; 12-08-2013 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:32 AM   #434
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
To question this rational you are automatically branded a hater no matter how many times you give Rocky justified credit. This breed of followers are as zealous as any in the sport, their position and reasoning for the most part tribal. Still, have fun punching the bag
I never branded you a hater. I was however confused that you questioned my rationale whilst attempting to compare Rocky Marciano with Alan minter, a tall European southpaw middleweight....
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:14 PM   #435
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I never branded you a hater. I was however confused that you questioned my rationale whilst attempting to compare Rocky Marciano with Alan minter, a tall European southpaw middleweight....
I really was not referring to you in particular or really anyone in specific .. it's just an over all Rocky group of sorts and it does not mean I'm right because all of this is speculative, it's just my feelings on the debate in general. As far as the Minter reference , I'll have to look back as I'm a bit confused .. nothing new
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