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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.48%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.58%
Draw 4 2.58%
Liston by KO 79 50.97%
Liston by Decision 13 8.39%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-10-2013, 06:48 PM   #511
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
[/u]

When two bangers meet all things being equal the one with the best chin usually wins
unless it is Liston vs Marciano?
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:53 PM   #512
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

When one guy has 25 pounds on the other "all things" aren't being "equal."
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:24 PM   #513
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
deep down do you think Floyd was as "up" for Liston as he was ingo? Is that what came out of the new bio?

I know floyd wanted those fights made because Floyd was such an honerable man, he spoke so well of Liston, defending Sonnys bad press etc, I have read all the books too, I know this as well as you do. Am I not allowed to say that in my opinion Floyd did not look himself in those fights? Deep down, when it came to it I don't think Floyd relished the prospect. Floyd being psyched out or frozen both times is a popular view among fight people. Angelo Dundee for one thought so.

Liston always had a picnic against Floyd. Too much of a picnic. Floyd was better than Liston allowed him to look, WKO 1 is a great win on paper but too often at top level blunder on the part of the loser is often as responsible as the prowess of the winner. Marciano -Walcott 2nd fight, Tyson -spinks, Dokes-weaver, Smith-Witherspoon. Etc etc.

Liston utterly destroyed Patterson both times. I just think they should go down as all the other one round blow outs did. The loser wasn't much cop on the night.

It's funny how it is always the same People who dismiss machen as being "caught cold" against ingo as the ones who say Patterson was not psyched out against Liston. The same people often hint at both clay-Liston fights being thrown. Funny how all these opinions the machen being cold, Floyd not being psyched out, clay fights not being on the level all favour Liston. Hmmm, funny that?
Ha Ha the all mighty Agenda
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #514
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Another myth killed by video.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

-Liston certainly doesn't walk through Williams' power shots. Actually Liston shows some underrated defense, he guards Big Cat's left hook well with a high right hand , shows solid head movement, and doesn't get got clean with any of the big wind ups.

Williams does land some good body shots, its actually a hook to the body that backs Liston up in the first round. Williams also lands some jabs, which is what appears to cause the nose bleed.

-Good action in the second, Williams digs to Liston's body as he tries to bull rush in behind a high guard. Liston sucks it up and finally finds the range on his jab while figuring out how to avoid Williams' jab. Williams gets busted up on the outside and when he tries to lay on Liston and rest, he gets busted up too.

-Williams lays on the inside in the third, he tries some left hooks but Liston blocks it all easily and comes back with his own shots. Williams has no defense, and literally gets tagged with everything Liston throws. He ends up discouraged and just eats punishment in a state of confusion before getting knocked out.

-Doesn't prove Liston is an iron chinned warrior with the heart of a lion but it shows he had the skills to deal with a big predictable lug. Liston would probably have his way with someone like Ruddock. Is Liston vulnerable to the body on the inside? Perhaps.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:15 PM   #515
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Thumbs up Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Ive met Ali a couple times. He is a very large man, large of frame and limb. Even at 200 he was big, bigger than Louis, bigger than Baer, bigger than Dempsey... three of the biggest power hitters the division ever saw. Trying to purport that Ali was "small" is ridiculous.
I totaly agree, Muhammad is a huge guy, I never said he was small. He is as big as anyone needs to be. I was using it as an example for dismissing great fighters as cruiserweight. It's funny how the "cruiser card" only gets played for certain fighters when a guy as big as Muhammad can be brought into it. Modern training and PEDs have a lot to answer for...don't get me started on the superheavyweight myth.. size is not the be all and end all. In some match ups. Heavyweight is Heavyweight.

Last edited by choklab; 12-11-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:26 PM   #516
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
Ha Ha the all mighty Agenda
Ain't that the truth!
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:00 AM   #517
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
deep down do you think Floyd was as "up" for Liston as he was ingo? Is that what came out of the new bio?
How the **** do I know?? But the only evidence you have to the contrary is that Patterson was knocked out. There is reams, reams of evidence to that supports the opposite conclusion and much has been presented to you but STILL you just witter on about the same shit sans evidence year after year after year.

Quote:
Am I not allowed to say that in my opinion Floyd did not look himself in those fights?
You make this judgment based upon two minutes of footage.

Quote:
Deep down, when it came to it I don't think Floyd relished the prospect.
Your incredible, convenient insight speaks either to your incredible psychological profiling OR your admitted determination to undermine Liston at any opportunity. I am forced to chose between believing that you have a greater insight into the human soul than most people, OR that you speak bullshit to further your agenda. Given your wider conduct and general lack of insight, it has to be the latter.

The FACTS are that Floyd vigorously pursued a fight with Liston, then vigorously pursued a rematch, then vigorously pursued a second rematch. Yes, I think he was just as up for Liston as others. "Deep down."

Quote:
WKO 1 is a great win on paper but too often at top level blunder on the part of the loser is often as responsible as the prowess of the winner. Marciano -Walcott 2nd fight, Tyson -spinks, Dokes-weaver, Smith-Witherspoon. Etc etc.
Well, at least you are consistent in undermining the most impressive KO wins in history It makes you look even dumber, but I admire the consistency.

Just to present the counter point in case any children are reading, making a guy look bad, taking advantage of the first opening you receive, demonstrating the punching power and finishing ability to KO world class opponents quickly is amongst the most impressive things at the highest level of boxing.

But most of us know that.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:28 AM   #518
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
unless it is Liston vs Marciano?
Liston was more than a banger he was a boxer puncher with one of the greatest jabs in heavyweight history. He was also bigger, stronger, with better boxing skills, and with tremendous advantages in reach,and for this fight he would be PRIME.

All things being equal does not apply here.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:41 AM   #519
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
Another myth killed by video.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

-Liston certainly doesn't walk through Williams' power shots. Actually Liston shows some underrated defense, he guards Big Cat's left hook well with a high right hand , shows solid head movement, and doesn't get got clean with any of the big wind ups.

Williams does land some good body shots, its actually a hook to the body that backs Liston up in the first round. Williams also lands some jabs, which is what appears to cause the nose bleed.

-Good action in the second, Williams digs to Liston's body as he tries to bull rush in behind a high guard. Liston sucks it up and finally finds the range on his jab while figuring out how to avoid Williams' jab. Williams gets busted up on the outside and when he tries to lay on Liston and rest, he gets busted up too.

-Williams lays on the inside in the third, he tries some left hooks but Liston blocks it all easily and comes back with his own shots. Williams has no defense, and literally gets tagged with everything Liston throws. He ends up discouraged and just eats punishment in a state of confusion before getting knocked out.

-Doesn't prove Liston is an iron chinned warrior with the heart of a lion but it shows he had the skills to deal with a big predictable lug. Liston would probably have his way with someone like Ruddock. Is Liston vulnerable to the body on the inside? Perhaps.
This is a somewhat objective post ,and on this thread that is refreshing.
Williams lands a good uppercut in the opening seconds but most of his big shots to the body are blocked by Liston's big arms, he has more success with his jab.
Point here,Williams had significantly better hand speed than Marciano,and a good jab from a much greater reach than Rocky which Marciano did not possess.
Liston manages to smother Williams shots, so why wouldnt he do the same to the comparatively tiny ,slower Marciano?
When tagged Liston retreated and regrouped,[I mentioned this in an earlier post ,]I dont see any sign of him being in trouble, just sensible defensive work, Marciano did not retreat when tagged ,he kept coming because he was dead in the water at long range, and smart enough to know it.
To the question was Liston vulnerable to the body? No one dropped him with a body shot, no on edoubled him up with one,and if for arguments sake we say he was ,Marciano has to take all Liston's salvoes to get there.
The fact that Liston had his jaw broke in the 4 thrd against Marshall yet carried on losing a split decision, indicates there was nothing wrong with his heart,imo.
Liston 's nose was not just bleeding against Williams ,it was broken.
I see Rocky dropped enroute ,and stopped by tko mid rounds, cut and bleeding.


"The year 1959 was a banner one for Liston: after knocking out contender [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in six, he then faced [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], a fast-handed fighter who was billed as the hardest-hitting heavyweight in the world. Against Williams, Liston showed remarkable durability and punching power. He also revealed heretofore-unsuspected boxing skills, nullifying Williams' best work before stopping him in the third round of an "incredible" contest that many still regard as his most impressive performance. He rounded out the year by stopping [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], also in three."

Last edited by mcvey; 12-11-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:50 AM   #520
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
The FACTS are that Floyd vigorously pursued a fight with Liston, then vigorously pursued a rematch, then vigorously pursued a second rematch. Yes, I think he was just as up for Liston as others. "Deep down".
Of course we both know there is a great deal between wanting the fight and being fully mentally able to fight. Training camps can go great but if doubts are there once the bell clangs.. tension can take hold. It is a tribute to Liston to say so.

.Patterson being psyched out for both Liston fights is a popular, well established opinion among boxing people within the trade. Now I can make allowances for your attempt to question my psychological profiling (WTF???) But it is an opinion worth taking up with the late, great Angelo Dundee who shared this view point with me.

Liston did a wonderful job on Patterson, no doubt about it, these are Sonnys best wins ever but the psychological factor plays its part. It is not insulting to Sonny to sugest that it played a part in those wins. His blows landed, he was pin point and forced those results with his fists. He backed it up with sheer talent yet his energy and reputation also made an impression.

Without getting all irrational with me, in light of popular views, isnt it worth considering the psychology and how much of a mental asset that was to Liston and if it worked against all his foes?
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Old 12-11-2013, 04:15 AM   #521
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
I totaly agree, Muhammad is a huge guy, I never said he was small. He is as big as anyone needs to be. I was using it as an example for dismissing great fighters as cruiserweight. It's funny how the "cruiser card" only gets played for certain fighters when a guy as big as Muhammad can be brought into it. Modern training and PEDs have a lot to answer for...don't get me started on the superheavyweight myth.. size is not the be all and end all. In some match ups. Heavyweight is Heavyweight.
Its funny how a two time Heavyweight champion who fought the vast majority of his fights in the heavy division gets dismissed as a natural lightheavyweight ? Since he was as heavy as Marciano in title defences does that apply to Rocky?
How about playing the card below?

"A modern sized heavyweight who lost to a 174 pounder, won the title off a natural lightheavyweight "
Who said, " heavyweight is heavyweight"?

Here is a report of Marciano's 33 rd fight against Red Applegate who had won 1 of his last 12 fights.



[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]11-14-2Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island, USAWUD1010[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]referee: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
This was a bruising, crowd-pleasing battle. Marciano won handily enough but failed to even knock down his opponent, who had fought only twice in the previous two years. Applegate's best round was the third, which the referee also took from Marciano because of a low punch. Red landed plenty of good punches, typically in the early parts of rounds, but Marciano almost always came back later to take the play away. Marciano's best round was the sixth. The attendance was 4167 and the gross gate was $7,6l6.
Impressive?

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill."

Last edited by mcvey; 12-11-2013 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:18 AM   #522
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
How the **** do I know?? But the only evidence you have to the contrary is that Patterson was knocked out. There is reams, reams of evidence to that supports the opposite conclusion and much has been presented to you but STILL you just witter on about the same shit sans evidence year after year after year.



You make this judgment based upon two minutes of footage.



Your incredible, convenient insight speaks either to your incredible psychological profiling OR your admitted determination to undermine Liston at any opportunity. I am forced to chose between believing that you have a greater insight into the human soul than most people, OR that you speak bullshit to further your agenda. Given your wider conduct and general lack of insight, it has to be the latter.

The FACTS are that Floyd vigorously pursued a fight with Liston, then vigorously pursued a rematch, then vigorously pursued a second rematch. Yes, I think he was just as up for Liston as others. "Deep down."



Well, at least you are consistent in undermining the most impressive KO wins in history It makes you look even dumber, but I admire the consistency.

Just to present the counter point in case any children are reading, making a guy look bad, taking advantage of the first opening you receive, demonstrating the punching power and finishing ability to KO world class opponents quickly is amongst the most impressive things at the highest level of boxing.

But most of us know that.
F. P. "I insisted that I fight him, because I don't feel like a champion if there is someone I'm ducking.I gave him his chance and he won ,and I'm stll glad to this day that he got the shot."

B. I . Did Cus want you to fight him?
F P. No I went over Cus and insisted on the fight." Patterson also said he planned to fight no1 contender Machen whom he expected to beat Johannson , but of course Ingo won.

Boxing Illustrated interview with Patterson , October 1995.
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Old 12-11-2013, 07:46 AM   #523
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
This is a somewhat objective post ,and on this thread that is refreshing.
Williams lands a good uppercut in the opening seconds but most of his big shots to the body are blocked by Liston's big arms, he has more success with his jab.
Point here,Williams had significantly better hand speed than Marciano,and a good jab from a much greater reach than Rocky which Marciano did not possess.
Liston manages to smother Williams shots, so why wouldnt he do the same to the comparatively tiny ,slower Marciano?
When tagged Liston retreated and regrouped,[I mentioned this in an earlier post ,]I dont see any sign of him being in trouble, just sensible defensive work, Marciano did not retreat when tagged ,he kept coming because he was dead in the water at long range, and smart enough to know it.
To the question was Liston vulnerable to the body? No one dropped him with a body shot, no on edoubled him up with one,and if for arguments sake we say he was ,Marciano has to take all Liston's salvoes to get there.
The fact that Liston had his jaw broke in the 4 thrd against Marshall yet carried on losing a split decision, indicates there was nothing wrong with his heart,imo.
Liston 's nose was not just bleeding against Williams ,it was broken.
I see Rocky dropped enroute ,and stopped by tko mid rounds, cut and bleeding.


"The year 1959 was a banner one for Liston: after knocking out contender [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in six, he then faced [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], a fast-handed fighter who was billed as the hardest-hitting heavyweight in the world. Against Williams, Liston showed remarkable durability and punching power. He also revealed heretofore-unsuspected boxing skills, nullifying Williams' best work before stopping him in the third round of an "incredible" contest that many still regard as his most impressive performance. He rounded out the year by stopping [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], also in three."
-Given the film quality I possibly missed the uppercut.

-Williams landed some good ones to the body still, especially the one in the first round that got his attention. Liston had a high guard and was open, but many were also blocked in the later rounds as he figured the predictable and tiring Big Cat out.

-In the first round, Williams was certainly out jabbing Liston. Liston adjusted though in the second. Certainly evidence that Liston's jab was a real refined skill and not just a big reach.

-I thought Big Cat had good hand speed for a big man, but I think Marciano's quicker punches in the Layne, Walcott, and Matthews' fights are comparable. Big Cat also slowed down considerably after the active first round.

-Williams appeared to have longer arms than Liston, the commentary notes Liston's corner was telling him to crowd. Williams was helpless on the inside when he wasn't punching wildly at Liston's guard, he would start to get hit and try to back up unsuccessfully. Williams simply had no defense when he wasn't punching, and after the opening flurry in the second, he wasn't punching much. He reminds me a bit of Frank Bruno in that regard. The shorter armed Marciano was much more capable on the inside and protected himself better.

-And that's good in this case. Marciano backing up would get him murdered like Williams did. Because Liston would just go on the chase and lunge with those long right overhands.

-Liston was certainly hurt to the body in this fight, he dropped his hands and went to the ropes. Leading to Williams scoring with his most flush jabs.

-Commentary only notes a nose bleed, so that's what I had to go on. If it was revealed Liston's nose was broke, I wouldn't be surprised. Nose breaks like that are pretty common, especially getting hit straight on like that.

Last edited by The Mongoose; 12-11-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:44 AM   #524
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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What does Cooney have to to with this question?! I guess you can't answer how many guys Williams stopped that were rated in the top ten...so you go off tangent in a lame attempt to excuse the question. Can you not stay on track? Care to give me an answer?

As for Cooney, Foreman called him his brother on power, and Cooney shook George up in round one when they fought. Holmes also said Cooney's power was great, and he clearly hurt Holmes with a body shot at the end of round 4.

Now, who said Williams hits as hard as say Marciano or Liston? No one I can recall! Funny. Ali hurt Liston, yet Williams who landed hard stuff early in both fights could not hurt Liston outside of cuts.

IMO, Williams record as a KO puncher vs good journeyman or top ten opponents is rather thin. I could show you lots of guys who never fought anyone great with a high KO%
.
[quote=mcvey;15871038]I'll make this as simple as I can for you.
You said,and I quote.

"How many guys ranked in the top ten when Williams fought them did he stop? Much is his KO record buttressed by weak opposition".

Quote:
The implication being that Williams power was not that special, right or wrong?
First off you did not answer how many guys Williams stopped when they were rated. Power can be tied to class. If Williams never stopped a guy in the top ten ( Which seems true ), and his record is heavily inflated with journeyman ( also true ) then its an indication is power, which was good should not be called great.

Quote:
I then gave you several acknowledged power hitters who do not have, or have very limited kos over top ten ranked opposition. Cooney,Ruddock,Morrison,Lyle,Foster.
I know Ruddock, Cooney, and Morrison could hit a ton, because they KO'd a much better class of names ( in comparison to Williams ), and the video shows us the impact of their blows when they landed. What film on Williams have you seen to indicate the same? NONE I wager.

Quote:
Williams broke Liston's nose, I would imagine that hurt a bit. Who says Williams was not a big hitter
You do not need to be a big hitter to break a nose. You really know jack on boxing. Straweights if they land right can break a nose. Now, I did say Williams who got the better of Liston early in one of the matches did not hurt him., yet Ali clearly rocked Sonny. Things like this make be question just how hard a hitter Williams really was, and as I mentioned he did not stop any rated opponent. Williams KO % is fatten his KO record on numerous journeyman and trial horses.
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:49 AM   #525
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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I asked one question who did Big Cat KO that qualifies him as a monstrous puncher
McVey won't answer that. At least he has not date. When his agenda is compromised by facts, he'll go of tangent and run from the question!

I asked him the same. In addition, I asked him what video he saw on Williams that makes him look as powerfully as names he offered such as Cooney, Ruddock, or Morrison. Still crickets...
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