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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.71%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.60%
Draw 4 2.60%
Liston by KO 78 50.65%
Liston by Decision 13 8.44%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-13-2013, 10:51 PM   #631
he grant
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
was Liston Frozen out of title contention though? I don't think Liston was owed an automatic title shot until 1961 at the earliest. It was his 1960 results that demanded a shot. Nothing else before that could warrant automatic, mandatory status. No way was Liston deserving a shot before ingo in 1959.
Really ? Ingo beat one guy in Machen of any note Liston crushed Williams twice, destroyed Valdez and flatted Harris in 1 while it took Floyd 12 .. Cus wanted nothing to do with Liston, absolutely nothing he knew
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:26 PM   #632
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
The numbers show Walcott wasnt a more "live" champion on the night he fought Marciano than the psyched out floyd that Sonny beat? Does the film?

Floyd was younger but he did not get going or look himself in either fight with Liston.
The film shows Walcott fending off a younger, fitter fighter for as long as he could, then getting tired and sloppy.

I am sure Liston's physical superiority had nothing to do with Floyd's failure to "get going".
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:00 AM   #633
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Really ? Ingo beat one guy in Machen of any note … Liston crushed Williams twice, destroyed Valdez and flatted Harris in 1 while it took Floyd 12 .. Cus wanted nothing to do with Liston, absolutely nothing … he knew …
Liston deserved his shot, but not until 1961. It was not Sonnys fault that ingo landed the fight with Machen in 1958, that win eclipsed Sonny in 1958.

Liston beat Harris in 1960. Valdes was not #1 when Sonny beat him because Machen and others had already beat him. It is well known Williams was not yet a top ten fighter until after the Liston fights.

Like I already said, the wins in 1960 were what made Sonny, the wins before that could not warrant mandatory status.

For sonny to have been truly avoided would have meant him having better wins over current rated fighters on win streaks before 1959 than Ingo. Nothing Liston did until 1962 was worthy of interupting the Patterson-Johansson series. Sonny was only first in line once it was resolved..

Last edited by choklab; 12-14-2013 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:05 AM   #634
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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The film shows Walcott fending off a younger, fitter fighter for as long as he could, then getting tired and sloppy.

I am sure Liston's physical superiority had nothing to do with Floyd's failure to "get going".
The film shows Walcott fighting his challenger every step of the way though. Does the film show Floyd doing the same? I've never read Walcott say "marciano fought the shell of myself".
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:33 AM   #635
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
You agree that Patterson was a shell of himself and psyched out the first time.
No I don't. Where do you get this stuff from?

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The second time you think Patterson was much better, faster than the first time
no I don't you ****ing fruitcake. I think that Patterson was faster than Liston. YOU have been asked to explain how on earth you can defend claiming the opposite, which you seem to have done, and like every other difficult point you are challenged on in what is perhaps the most bizarre world view I have ever come across on this forum, you decline to answer.

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and at his "absolute prime".
He was absolutely inarguably in his absolute prime.


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I am saying that I don't think Patterson looked faster or much better.
Faster than himself the first time or faster than Liston? Because you've made both claims, I can't know. Talking to you is extremely confusing.

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He looked as tense and as hesitant and as hittable as the first time.
What hesitancy?? Johansson threw something like fifteen punches at Floyd before Floyd threw one in the first fight. Against Liston, Patterson let Liston throw fewer without reply, and threw earlier in the round...Patterson looked far more "hesitant" against Johansson than he did against Liston. Against Bonavena, he threw fewer punches than he did in the two minutes against Liston AND he tried to land the long left hook earlier against Liston than he did against Bonavena.

In other words, he wasn't "hesitant" against Liston at all, he showed around the same level of aggression as he did against most fighters.

I just think you don't know the fighter that you are talking about. Patterson often "had a look" against punchers

He looked "hittable" to you.

This, despite the fact that Patterson steps off the first two jabs Liston throws, the first one-two he throws, slips the next jab, before finally being hit by a jab going back (a telling blow for anyone not retarded and interested in this fight who happens to be reading this). He then makes Liston miss three consecutive jabs and at this point in the fight has been hit twice, for a connect percentage of around 20%. I know you struggle with punch connection rates, but trust me, this is not high. Patterson is the opposite of "hittable" in this opening section. Either because you are blinded by bias or, more excusably, you are mis-interpreting the very tangible danger in Liston's crowding Patterson as punishment.

Liston then beats Patterson's kidney in a clinch and when they are broken, Liston lands a jab and a right hand. Patterson is badly hurt by the right hand - the fight is basically over from this point.



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In fact Liston got going earlier than in the first fight. He could tell Floyd still wasn't a threat.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

And Liston was right. But this is no reflection on Patterson. Patterson was PHYSICALLY overmatched by Liston. The first time he gets hit by a hard punch he will be put straight into trouble. Meanwhile, because Liston is not respectful of Patterson's hitting power he is able to move forwards with impunity. These are the keys to the fight.

Patterson could have believed, literally, that he was Superman and he would still have been knocked out in the first or second round. He just didn't have the physical ability necessary to compete with a heavyweight of Liston's physical and technical abilities. The mix is too much for him.

There is literally no evidence on the fight film to suppor the notion that Patterson was slower than Liston, hesitant, or hittable to a degree that is in-ordinary. These are all claims that you have made and they are all false.

This match up particularly, Liston-Marciano, makes you hysterical.

Last edited by McGrain; 12-14-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:52 AM   #636
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

I don't know what fight you're watching, but it isn't the same as the rest of the world. Patterson fought like a rabbit in headlights, and only threw a couple of decent right hands out of desperation when he knew he was on the way to being KO'd.
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:13 AM   #637
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Liston deserved his shot, but not until 1961. It was not Sonnys fault that ingo landed the fight with Machen in 1958, that win eclipsed Sonny in 1958.

Liston beat Harris in 1960. Valdes was not #1 when Sonny beat him because Machen and others had already beat him. It is well known Williams was not yet a top ten fighter until after the Liston fights.

Like I already said, the wins in 1960 were what made Sonny, the wins before that could not warrant mandatory status.

For sonny to have been truly avoided would have meant him having better wins over current rated fighters on win streaks before 1959 than Ingo. Nothing Liston did until 1962 was worthy of interupting the Patterson-Johansson series. Sonny was only first in line once it was resolved..
Delusional is delusional. It is so well documented that Cus wanted no part of Liston that your post is nonsense. From 59 on he deserved it as much as anyone did. to say he didn't till 61 is just you spinning crap and you know it.
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:15 AM   #638
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Foxy 01 View Post
I don't know what fight you're watching, but it isn't the same as the rest of the world. Patterson fought like a rabbit in headlights, and only threw a couple of decent right hands out of desperation when he knew he was on the way to being KO'd.
Patterson was as brave as any higher that ever lived. He did what he could. He got smashed because he was a terrible match up stylistically against a Liston. Marciano would not have lasted far longer.A couple of rounds, tops.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:08 AM   #639
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
Patterson was as brave as any higher that ever lived. He did what he could. He got smashed because he was a terrible match up stylistically against a Liston. Marciano would not have lasted far longer.A couple of rounds, tops.
agreed
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:55 AM   #640
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Yeah, Patterson was brave to the point of stupidity. He was actively seeking a third fight with Liston, it was crazy.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:19 AM   #641
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Foxy 01 View Post
I don't know what fight you're watching, but it isn't the same as the rest of the world. Patterson fought like a rabbit in headlights, and only threw a couple of decent right hands out of desperation when he knew he was on the way to being KO'd.
You are watching it the right way because that is exactly what the films show. Caught in the headlights with his head elsewhere... a sitting duck in that frame of mind.

Apparently Marciano would be a psyched out rabbit in the headlights too...
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:40 AM   #642
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Yeah, Patterson was brave to the point of stupidity. He was actively seeking a third fight with Liston, it was crazy.
You cant blame Patterson for wanting a third fight, he felt it was his duty to redeem himself after the humiliation of those fights because he knew he did not do himself justice. It is not as crazy as you think. In fact you are crazy to think Floyd shouldn't want another chance with Liston especially after the way Liston blew the clay fights.

Floyd said he wanted to win the title back so that he could ask cus to come back once he had the title again. He won it back once already and was able to beat good contenders like machen, Cooper, Chuvalo and Bonavenna so you cant blame Floyd for not thinking it was impossible to beat Liston in the future. Wether Floyd could have overcome his demons in a ring with Liston and finaly do himself justice against him we will never know.

That's not to say Floyd could win, maybe Liston always would knock Floyd out in one round even without Floyd being a rabbit caught in the headlights, but I do believe as I think most people do, that Floyd could do a lot better than lose in one round in a better frame of mind, with a better plan.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:24 PM   #643
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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You are watching it the right way because that is exactly what the films show. Caught in the headlights with his head elsewhere... a sitting duck in that frame of mind.
Yeah, except the description of the film i've provided doesn't really show that, and in pages and pages of posting this exact claim the best you've done is to say that it's about the same as the first one in length.

Instead of providing anything of interest or indeed any riposte at all of that original post, what you've done is quote a post by one of the forum's more ridiculous posters who happens to agrees with you and blurt the same non-specific meaningless blurb you always do.

Comparing Patterson directly to film of his previous first round performances, Patterson doesn't look different in terms of workrateor speed, as you claim or seem to claim.


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It is not as crazy as you think. In fact you are crazy to think Floyd shouldn't want another chance with Liston especially after the way Liston blew the clay fights.
Why do you think I think it's crazy?? Why do you think I think he's crazy for wanting to fight the third fight?? Where do you get this shit from, are you reading what I'm writing, or do you just turn on your laptop and type words??
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #644
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Yeah, except the description of the film i've provided doesn't really show that, and in pages and pages of posting this exact claim the best you've done is to say that it's about the same as the first one in length.

Instead of providing anything of interest or indeed any riposte at all of that original post, what you've done is quote a post by one of the forum's more ridiculous posters who happens to agrees with you and blurt the same non-specific meaningless blurb you always do.

Comparing Patterson directly to film of his previous first round performances, Patterson doesn't look different in terms of workrateor speed, as you claim or seem to claim.




Why do you think I think it's crazy?? Why do you think I think he's crazy for wanting to fight the third fight?? Where do you get this shit from, are you reading what I'm writing, or do you just turn on your laptop and type words??
Patterson is on record as saying that even he would not pay to see a third Liston vPatterson fight
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:52 PM   #645
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Yeah, Patterson was brave to the point of stupidity. He was actively seeking a third fight with Liston, it was crazy.
Sounds like you ARE saying Floyd is crazy for wanting a third liston fight to me.

Truth is you cant blame Floyd for wanting to erase those humiliating, piss poor one rounders because floyd must have felt he could do better with a better plan and better frame of mind..... but we will never know if he still had sonny in his head.
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