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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.71%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.60%
Draw 4 2.60%
Liston by KO 78 50.65%
Liston by Decision 13 8.44%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:54 PM   #646
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Sounds like you are saying Floyd is crazy for wanting a third liston fight to me.
Well, I'm not.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:59 PM   #647
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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well, i'm not.

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Old 12-14-2013, 01:13 PM   #648
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well, I'm not.
have you changed your mind?
you said Patterson was "brave to the point of stupidity" for wanting a third fight and "it was crazy". I am sorry but someone needs to tell you that this means you think Patterson was crazy for wanting a 3rd fight with charles Sonny liston..
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:22 PM   #649
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
have you changed your mind?
you said Patterson was "brave to the point of stupidity" for wanting a third fight and "it was crazy". I am sorry but someone needs to tell you that this means you think Patterson was crazy for wanting a 3rd fight with charles Sonny liston..

Patterson is on record as saying that even he would not pay to see a third Liston v Patterson fight.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:43 PM   #650
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post

This, despite the fact that Patterson steps off the first two jabs Liston throws, the first one-two he throws, slips the next jab, before finally being hit by a jab going back (a telling blow for anyone not retarded and interested in this fight who happens to be reading this). He then makes Liston miss three consecutive jabs and at this point in the fight has been hit twice, for a connect percentage of around 20%. I know you struggle with punch connection rates, but trust me, this is not high. Patterson is the opposite of "hittable" in this opening section. Either because you are blinded by bias or, more excusably, you are mis-interpreting the very tangible danger in Liston's crowding Patterson as punishment.

Liston then beats Patterson's kidney in a clinch and when they are broken, Liston lands a jab and a right hand. Patterson is badly hurt by the right hand - the fight is basically over from this point.





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And Liston was right. But this is no reflection on Patterson. Patterson was PHYSICALLY overmatched by Liston. The first time he gets hit by a hard punch he will be put straight into trouble. Meanwhile, because Liston is not respectful of Patterson's hitting power he is able to move forwards with impunity. These are the keys to the fight.

Patterson could have believed, literally, that he was Superman and he would still have been knocked out in the first or second round. He just didn't have the physical ability necessary to compete with a heavyweight of Liston's physical and technical abilities. The mix is too much for him.

There is literally no evidence on the fight film to suppor the notion that Patterson was slower than Liston, hesitant, or hittable to a degree that is in-ordinary. These are all claims that you have made and they are all false.

This match up particularly, Liston-Marciano, makes you hysterical.
I have just watched it again. You describe the fight well, I am impressed that you noticed the kidney punch, I liked that shot. Patterson did make Liston miss as you described but where as Sonny was getting off two or so at a time I did not notice Floyd putting more than one punch together at a time. He allowed Liston to be first, maybe to find range, maybe to make Sonny miss but he did not let anything go himself. No combinations. Floyd gets into range, makes Sonny miss then moves. He is not looking to establish his advantage in speed at this point against a man who has already knockd him out. Usually you want to let the other fellow know right off. Floyd did not. Floyd had the speed to beat Liston to the punch in bunches but he did not, he moves away perhaps to find a better angle but he is not grasping the initiative like a man on fire. Nor is he punching at his fastest either, we have all seen Floyd with faster hands than this. Maybe he is warming up? I dont know..but Liston stays on him, he's not warming up!, and Liston gets the uppercut off whilst Floyd is caught napping near the ropes. Floyd should not have even been near the ropes. Sonny is showing more focus, confidence and letting his hands go more than Floyd. It is clear that floyd is discouraged, he is not up for this fight, he tries but it is a bad night for him, he looks tense.

Last edited by choklab; 12-14-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 12-14-2013, 01:48 PM   #651
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
have you changed your mind?
you said Patterson was "brave to the point of stupidity" for wanting a third fight and "it was crazy". I am sorry but someone needs to tell you that this means you think Patterson was crazy for wanting a 3rd fight with charles Sonny liston..

Are you kidding me?

I've asked you about any proof you care to provide to back a dozen different statements you have made, including apparent claims that Liston was faster than Patterson, your claims that Patterson was hesitant, your claims that Patterson was slow, i've said that there was "literally no evidence" to support a variety of different claims you have made, and you have offered literally no response.

Instead, you've asked me about this. Twice. You're kind of tipping over from "troll" into "don't bother with that ****ing idiot", as a category.

Now, watch, as I carefully respond to your question instead of completely ignoring it and changing the subject, you complete waste of bandwidth.


I said that Patterson was "brave to the point of stupidity." What I meant was that, as opposed to your claims that Patterson was fighting "out of a sense of duty" (another totally boundless and indefensible, or at least undefended claim) he exhibited courage so extreme that to a regular citizen, that bravery could be mis-interpreted as stupidity. I mean that, his bravery is so extreme that it is possible to mis-interpret it as an entirely different characteristic, whilst it actually does not become this characteristic, as that would be impossible.


Now - how about you answer some of the questions you've left unanswered, by which I mean, most of them?
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:07 PM   #652
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
I have just watched it again. You describe the fight well, I am impressed that you noticed the kidney punch, I liked that shot.

The kidney shot is impossible to miss.

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Patterson did make Liston miss as you described but where as Sonny was getting off two or so at a time I did not notice Floyd putting more than one punch together at a time.
Identical to openings of many other Patterson fights, as i've described. Are you saying that Patterson was too terrified to fight in those fights also?

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He allowed Liston to be first
Common for him.

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maybe to find range
Common for him. He is relying upon his speed to counter. I've already been through this in minor detail, but you ignored me.

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maybe to make Sonny miss but he did not let anything go himself.
Normal for him early in a first round. He's exhibited everything you describe in other fights, as I've already described. What i'm more interested in is how you can simultaneously accuse Patterson of being too aggressive in this fight AND criticise him for failing to take more chances, in a fight that is two minutes long?

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Floyd gets into range, makes Sonny miss then moves.
This is inaccurate; Liston gets in to range and then Floyd moves. You are so incapable of looking at Liston or anything relating to him with any sort of objectivity. What you want to happen is what you describe above. But what you describe above does not include Sonny in any kind of positive fashion; he's a negative presence.

When you can see what is really happening - Liston moving forwards, Patterson taking account of him, like he did against Johansson, Bonavena, others, then moving out of range and waiting for a chance to land his left.

This is all normal for him.

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He is not looking to establish his advantage in speed at this point against a man who has already knockd him out.
But you've previously claimed he doesn't have an advantage in speed? Again, these two things cannot be true. Regardless, I think you are wrong. All the punches he throws are faster than Liston. What else do they need to be to establish the advantage in speed?

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Usually you want to let the other fellow know right off. Floyd did not.
Right, YOU might, with your supposed extensive boxing history, but LOTS of fighters did not, amongst them are Larry Holmes, Ken Norton, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko and yes, often, Floyd Patterson. What you're saying here isn't even remotely true, it's just something you've conjured because you think you can use it to criticise the fighter to hand. It's bullshit.

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Floyd had the speed to beat Liston to the punch in bunches but he did not
Yes, he does, but it is a high risk strategy that leaves him open to punches. Most of all, why is it unreasonable not to do it in the first minute?? You make out that this is a strategic failing that somehow would have spared him, but it is also the case, inarguably, that it makes him MORE likely to be punched. Throwing punches is the most likely thing to get you hit. This is obvious. You have said, in this thread, that Patterson going directly for Liston is the example of his bad strategy, and why he could do better, and it isn't true, it really isn't, it's something else you've made up, but now, when it comes to it and you actually respond to the questions I ask, it turns out that you want him to be more aggressive. It's just bullshit, and lots of it.

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Nor is he punching at his fastest either, we have all seen Floyd with faster hands than this.
I think he is punching very fast, he punches fast enough to get through with a single lead left hook from the outside, perhaps the single riskiest shot in boxing, without getting countered against a top pro. You're confusing combination punching with a lead. Floyd looks fasters in combination.


All in all, I don't think you know very much about boxing or boxers, and I think that shows.
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:05 PM   #653
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Identical to openings of many other Patterson fights, as i've described. Are you saying that Patterson was too terrified to fight in those fights also?
Common for him. He is relying upon his speed to counter. I've already been through this in minor detail, but you ignored me.
The situation required that Patterson do something other than let a man with longer arms take the lead and be first. Plenty of shorter champions with faster hands have done this and Floyd was as qualified as any of them, but it looks all to the world like Floyd has not settled he looks tense. It's not terror its tension. Common in one round blow outs.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Normal for him early in a first round. He's exhibited everything you describe in other fights, as I've already described. What i'm more interested in is how you can simultaneously accuse Patterson of being too aggressive in this fight AND criticise him for failing to take more chances, in a fight that is two minutes long?
Patterson said he was too aggressive, I repeated Floyd because he was dissatisfied with both fights. he said he was a shell first time and went in hard headed, met Sonny at his own game, walked right into it and got caught the second time. On that occasion I was using one of your habits "he said it so it must be true" since you pulled me up on the whole Floyd wanted Liston stuff. Don't accuse me for what the man said. All along I second what Dundee always said Floyd psyched out both times. He wanted it so bad he psyched himself out again.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
This is inaccurate; Liston gets in to range and then Floyd moves. You are so incapable of looking at Liston or anything relating to him with any sort of objectivity. What you want to happen is what you describe above. But what you describe above does not include Sonny in any kind of positive fashion; he's a negative presence.
Liston fought with confidence, focus, got off first with two hands each time. I already said that, how is that objective to sonny?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
When you can see what is really happening - Liston moving forwards, Patterson taking account of him, like he did against Johansson, Bonavena, others, then moving out of range and waiting for a chance to land his left.
This is how you see it. Again, a fighter like Floyd was experienced enough to figure out the required tempo and adjust it to the opponent in front of him. There is no fire there, it's not just in an aggressive sense that you can tell this, defensively the focus has to be there too. The same steps, the same moves would have looked more flowing against another fighter. Things are not flowing here for Floyd.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
But you've previously claimed he doesn't have an advantage in speed? Again, these two things cannot be true. Regardless, I think you are wrong. All the punches he throws are faster than Liston. What else do they need to be to establish the advantage in speed?
Floyd showed faster hands in other fights. I don't think I ever said Liston had faster hands than Floyd. Using two hands together is a better sign of fast hands. When did he do this against Liston? Individual punches were still fast and possibly faster than Listons but not enough to discourage Sonny from throwing more than one at a time.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Right, YOU might, with your supposed extensive boxing history, but LOTS of fighters did not, amongst them are Larry Holmes, Ken Norton, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko and yes, often, Floyd Patterson. What you're saying here isn't even remotely true, it's just something you've conjured because you think you can use it to criticise the fighter to hand. It's bullshit.
I am not criticising here. It is observing. Floyd stayed on ingo in their rematch. He was first against him. That is what I was on about, you are trying far too hard to ridicule what I say in an effort to avoid that point I make.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yes, he does, but it is a high risk strategy that leaves him open to punches. Most of all, why is it unreasonable not to do it in the first minute?? You make out that this is a strategic failing that somehow would have spared him, but it is also the case, inarguably, that it makes him MORE likely to be punched. Throwing punches is the most likely thing to get you hit. This is obvious. You have said, in this thread, that Patterson going directly for Liston is the example of his bad strategy, and why he could do better, and it isn't true, it really isn't, it's something else you've made up, but now, when it comes to it and you actually respond to the questions I ask, it turns out that you want him to be more aggressive. It's just bullshit, and lots of it.
Again it is not to be more aggresive it's to be more ready and focussed. Being first. Of course letting punches go exposes one self, it was always going to be a tall order for Floyd but one shot at a time? Going over to the ropes? If Floyd had a plan the kidney punch had him moving off and for what ever reason he never adjusted to the situation once Sonny stepped it up and took the initiative. He was quite capable of using a plan like Tommy Morrison did against Foreman or like what Floyd did himself against chuvalo but he was just completely off by the look of him.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I think he is punching very fast, he punches fast enough to get through with a single lead left hook from the outside, perhaps the single riskiest shot in boxing, without getting countered against a top pro. You're confusing combination punching with a lead. Floyd looks fasters in combination
I am not confused. I don't know the difference between combination and lead. Are you joking? Floyd did have faster hands in combination and he did well to land that one hook, but he never got round to trying a combination it was all he could muster within that kind of display. His timing was almost on, he should have been more positive and focussed and let his hands go rather than let sonny gain in confidence like he did. Floyd shrank in that fight. He did not against ingo.
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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
All in all, I don't think you know very much about boxing or boxers, and I think that shows.
you disagree with me, that's ok, I am enjoying the debate. Just don't confuse that with anything else. You are just not qualified. The thing with you is you insult anyone who disagrees with you. And you wont commit to whether you think Liston was knocked out, quit or threw the clay fights or explain how Liston went from being prime to old in just one fight without survivng a war at world level. There is evidence that respected boxing people agree Floyd fell apart mentally and that it helped Sonny beat Patterson as one sided as he did. There is evidence that Floyd started fights using more than single shots as well.

Last edited by choklab; 12-15-2013 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:36 AM   #654
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
The situation required that Patterson do something other than let a man with longer arms take the lead and be first. Plenty of shorter champions with faster hands have done this and Floyd was as qualified as any of them, but it looks all to the world like Floyd has not settled he looks tense. It's not terror its tension. Common in one round blow outs.
It is interesting that you set yourself up as this surgeon regarding Patterson's strategy and then immediately convert that into an indication of his state of mind. But as I have already explained to you twice, the strategy that Patterson uses against Liston is the strategy that he used against both Oscar Bonavena and at least once, Johansson. Patterson didn't fight overly aggressive in fights where he didn't feel the opponent was "there" without his having had a look.

Patterson's inability to absorb Liston's punches - proven - means that his avoiding any heavy blows in the opening round was even more important. Basically, the idea that he had to be more aggressive in the opening 120 seconds to "prove" himself or something is asinine, and proves very little, especially as he exhibited this exact strategy on previous occasions. He was less aggressive in the opening 120 seconds against Bonavena.

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Patterson said he was too aggressive, I repeated Floyd because he was dissatisfied with both fights. he said he was a shell first time and went in hard headed, met Sonny at his own game, walked right into it and got caught the second time.
Right, so what we have here is you drawing two points from the same source, believing one because it suits you and discounting another because it doesn't.

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On that occasion I was using one of your habits "he said it so it must be true" since you pulled me up on the whole Floyd wanted Liston stuff.
That is absolutely unbelievable that you have said that to me. I don't ever take that attitude with what a fighter said - in fact, I find the notion that you are taking Floyd at his word regarding his reason for his loss and then proceeding as though it were a truism ridiculous. I responded by pointing out to you that Patterson had said things that contradicted what you said - in other words, playing you at your own game. More lies. More wriggling.


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Liston fought with confidence, focus, got off first with two hands each time. I already said that, how is that objective to sonny?
Your lack of objectivity was explained to you, and had absolutely nothing to do with your acknowledging the above. I will presume that you are not so stupid to believe that "bias" does not mean "never saying anything good about one guy ever no matter what" and leave it at that.

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This is how you see it.
Is Liston moving forwards? Yes. Is Patterson moving back? Yes. So generally, it's just flat out true that Liston is the one "moving into range", not Floyd, rather than "how I see it."

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Again, a fighter like Floyd was experienced enough to figure out the required tempo and adjust it to the opponent in front of him.
The fight lasted seconds.

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There is no fire there, it's not just in an aggressive sense that you can tell this, defensively the focus has to be there too.
So there is no fire in a defensive sense? Sorry, i have no idea what this means. I know that Patterson makes Liston miss an absolute shitload in the opening minutes and I know that this constitutes good defence. I also know that it doesn't matter because the first time he gets hit hard, he's in bad trouble.

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Floyd showed faster hands in other fights. I don't think I ever said Liston had faster hands than Floyd.
You said that Liston was "able to beat Liston to the punch" and suggested in the same post that Patteson's speed was inhibited because he was tense/scared/some shit. I have no idea what you were talking about and asked you repeatedly to no avail but I think we'll just call it a day on that.

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Using two hands together is a better sign of fast hands.
No, having fast hands is a sign of fast hands. There are several other fights where Patterson does not throw in combination in the opening minutes. It is very, very, very common for fighters to avoid the risks involving combination punches early in fights. It happens in most fights. I suspect there are more fights where one or the other fighter does NOT throw cobinations in the first two minutes than there are where both fighters do. In fights where a fighter is taking on a huge puncher it is even more common. Trying to use it as a sign that Patterson was unable to fight properly when a) he does it all the time and b) loads of fighters do it lots is utterly, utterly ridiculous. It is sheer stupidity.

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Individual punches were still fast and possibly faster than Listons


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but not enough to discourage Sonny from throwing more than one at a time.
Liston was never, ever disturbed by hand speed. Footspeed yes, handspeed no. He once said that the only fast that interested him was how fast a guy could knock somoone.

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I am not criticising here. It is observing.
But your observations are bias, have meanings assigned where none exist and seem bereft of any real knowledge of how Patterson actually fought. You want to have this argument in the vaccum of Liston-Patterson where you can ignore the fact that what Patterson did against Liston is extremely common in boxing, extremely common on the part of Patterson himself. It's boring in the extreme and is not grounded in reality.

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Floyd stayed on ingo in their rematch. He was first against him. That is what I was on about, you are trying far too hard to ridicule what I say in an effort to avoid that point I make.
I'm ridiculing it and you because it's bullshit and you're something of a troll. Yes Patterson fought aggressively in the opening on occasion, against Jackson and Moore most notably, but he also fought extremely conservatively in the opening minutes.

In the third fight against Johansson, Patterson threw more jabs in the opening than he did against Liston, but was the less aggressive of the two fighters. Still, he was dropped. This, this specifically is why Floyd sometimes fought conservative openings.

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Fighting a conservative opening is not strage; it is not odd; it is not indicative of some deeper problem. It is absolutely normal for all fighters, at times, and completely normal for Patterson.


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I am not confused. I don't know the difference between combination and lead. Are you joking?
No, i'm not joking. You seem to me to be deeply confused, often. It's why you keep changing your position even in your own argument - it is why "Floyd didn't want those fights" becomes "Floyd wanted those fights but only out of a sense of duty" becomes "Floyd was a shell" becomes "you think Floyd is a shell." Do you see how someone responding to you would find this difficult? You continually change the position you are trying to defend.



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The thing with you is you insult anyone who disagrees with you.
With all due respect choklab, **** off. I insult you. But i've been on this forum for years more than you, have been one of the more active posters in that time, and I disagree with guys every day. I would do nothing but insult posters if this was the case, but as with most of what you say, it is total bullshit.

I treat other posters as I find them. The ones I do insult tend to be trolls.

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And you wont commit to whether you think Liston was knocked out, quit or threw the clay fights
No, I won't commit to that. I find you absolutely ludicrous for "committing", like it's somehow positive to believe fervently in something you don't understand - and I know I know more about those two fights than you - and it's something I won't do. I know that Bob Mee, Nick Tosches, Rob Steen and Mark Kram all disagree with your notion that Liston quit dog twice, which you've actually tried to pass off on this forum as a truism that we "have to accept."

My answer is, "I don't know." Your answer is, "what answer most helps me to pick Rocky Marciano over Sonny Liston?"

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or explain how Liston went from being prime to old in just one fight without survivng a war at world level.
Your ludicrousness knows absolutely no bounds.

Not only do I not accept that Liston got "old over night" as you've suggested I do, not only have I explained to you on two occasions before how it might be true i've even explained it to you in this f*cking thread. You're either a dummy or just an out-and-out troll. If it's the latter, I congratulate you.

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"Sonny was inactive. Sonny was an alcoholic. Sonny may already have been using heroin. Sonny didn't train seriously."

Ffs.
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Old 12-15-2013, 09:37 AM   #655
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, except the description of the film i've provided doesn't really show that, and in pages and pages of posting this exact claim the best you've done is to say that it's about the same as the first one in length.

Instead of providing anything of interest or indeed any riposte at all of that original post, what you've done is quote a post by one of the forum's more ridiculous posters who happens to agrees with you and blurt the same non-specific meaningless blurb you always do.

Comparing Patterson directly to film of his previous first round performances, Patterson doesn't look different in terms of workrateor speed, as you claim or seem to claim.




Why do you think I think it's crazy?? Why do you think I think he's crazy for wanting to fight the third fight?? Where do you get this shit from, are you reading what I'm writing, or do you just turn on your laptop and type words??
You want to try winding your neck in.

The more ridiculous posters are obsessive fools like you that try to convince people that what they can actually see with their own eyes isn't really happening. Rather you fools want folks to agree with your opinions, which in the greater scheme of things are about as much use as a one legged man at an ass kicking convention.

I don't care how many people want to scream how brave Patterson was, in that fight he fought scared, knowing that the KO was inevitable.

It is there for all to see, your interpretation of it is worthless.
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Old 12-15-2013, 10:40 AM   #656
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but you have come across as rather lunatic.
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:38 AM   #657
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
No, i'm not joking. You seem to me to be deeply confused, often. It's why you keep changing your position even in your own argument - it is why "Floyd didn't want those fights" becomes "Floyd wanted those fights but only out of a sense of duty" becomes "Floyd was a shell" becomes "you think Floyd is a shell." Do you see how someone responding to you would find this difficult? You continually change the position you are trying to defend. .
ok, so now I know why you are so hostile, it's not that I change my opinion, I am just brining in more points. I always said Floyd was psyched out for both fights. I still stand by that. Floyd did say he was a shell. He did say he fought hard headed and walked into it the second time, I quoted him even though the film does not bare this out. Then, when you asked me to watch the fight it shows he more or less was as much of a shell like as the first fight so in answer to that I was honest about what I saw. i repeated Floyd's quote because it still verifies the point that Floyd was dissatisfied with both fights. One he felt he was a shell, the second time it felt it was as a blunder. Earlier I meant to say "Floyd did not want it", once the bell went even though yes he still wanted those fights out of duty. I'm sorry if you think I changed my mind. Not wanting it and not wanting the fight itself is different, forgive my wording, I am not pulling bullshit here. Now I have answered this I hope you are no longer confused. Do you think Floyd was not dissatisfied with himself in those fights? You earlier said he was crazy or it was crazy of him to want a third fight but by the time he beat machen, Cooper and Chuvalo it's only natural he would have felt he could erase those losses.


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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
No, I won't commit to that. I find you absolutely ludicrous for "committing", like it's somehow positive to believe fervently in something you don't understand - and I know I know more about those two fights than you - and it's something I won't do. I know that Bob Mee, Nick Tosches, Rob Steen and Mark Kram all disagree with your notion that Liston quit dog twice, which you've actually tried to pass off on this forum as a truism that we "have to accept."

My answer is, "I don't know." Your answer is, "what answer most helps me to pick Rocky Marciano over Sonny Liston?".
Nick Toches totaly disgraced himself as any kind of authority when he made up bullshit about the Moore-Marciano fight being fixed so Rocky could retire undefeated. I think he quoted an IBC man to verify it but the guy must have been joking because it was silly on about 20 levels. 19 more times more stupid than you think I am in fact. I read the other books too. Bob Mee knows boxing. I have more respect for him but it's just an opinion with as much stuff that can prove otherwise. The other two writers are hardly authorities. Not sure if their interest in boxing is that exclusive. They know no more than most posters on here about boxing. Sonny was owned by the mob, so what? So was Marciano, Walcott, Joe Louis people were numbers guys.

By the way, if you don't have an opinion why get so excited? Don't you trust yourself enough to decide?


Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
"Sonny was inactive. Sonny was an alcoholic. Sonny may already have been using heroin. Sonny didn't train seriously."

.
he let himself down then. Alcoholic and using heroin? Most people close to Sonny said he did not like needles.

Last edited by choklab; 12-15-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-15-2013, 12:06 PM   #658
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
ok, so now I know why you are so hostile, it's not that I change my opinion, I am just brining in more points.
I am not hostile to you because you "bring in more points." I've been as clear as possible about why i'm hostile.

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I always said Floyd was psyched out for both fights. I still stand by that. Floyd did say he was a shell. He did say he fought hard headed and walked into it the second time, I quoted him even though the film does not bare this out.
Yes - you quoted him and then chucked the part you don't care for and insist the part you do care for is God's own truth - then you insisted that i'm guilty of quoting fighters and insisting it's true

Quote:
Then, when you asked me to watch the fight it shows he more or less was as much of a shell like as the first fight so in answer to that I was honest about what I saw.
Right - but Floyd's behaviour is almost identical in other fights. Not literally identical, but very, very similar. But you seem unable to acknowledge this. I don't think you've even mentioned it although I've brought it up multiple times.

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i repeated Floyd's quote because it still verifies the point that Floyd was dissatisfied with both fights.
Why do you think you have to "verify" a man being dis-satisfied with being knocked out in seconds twice? Who is going to be satisfied with that? Why do you keep bringing this up like it means something? Of course he was dissatisfied!

Quote:
One he felt he was a shell, the second time it felt it was as a blunder. Earlier I meant to say "Floyd did not want it", once the bell went even though yes he still wanted those fights out of duty. I'm sorry if you think I changed my mind. Not wanting it and not wanting the fight itself is different, forgive my wording, I am not pulling bullshit here. Now I have answered this I hope you are no longer confused.
If you say "Floyd didn't want those fights" people will think you mean "Floyd didn't want those fights." I'm sure if we're at it long enough we'll come across plenty of other sh1t you didn't really mean.

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Do you think Floyd was not dissatisfied with himself in those fights?


Quote:
Nick Toches totaly disgraced himself as any kind of authority when he made up bullshit about the Moore-Marciano fight being fixed so Rocky could retire undefeated.
Nah, having spent more time looking into these fights than almost any other living human being his opinion is still of interest. But it doesn't matter - the over-reaching point is your insistence that it's a positive to just vomit up a concrete opinion and insist on its truth when most of the guys who looked into it in great detail when in fact, nobody that has looked into it in any great detail can do that. It's too difficult. Only Toches comes down concrete and he says Liston did not quit dog. Obviously you're not going to believe him, and I take it under advisement also.

Quote:
The other two writers are hardly authorities.
Well I'll take the opinion of a man who has spent years researching and writing about Liston over yours, which is generally badly informed.



Quote:
he let himself down then. Alcoholic and using heroin? Most people close to him said he did not like needles.
Right. But instead of saying "oh yeah, i'm sorry i accused you of something that wasn't true" you say "he let himself down then." More wriggling.

Of course he let himself down if he was using heroin at this point (and you've overlooked that it can be hot-railed or smoked) but that is not the point. The point is it has been explained to you in great detail prior to this, and even in this thread how he might come to age overnight but you prove consistently unable to absorb new information that might change your bizarre position on Liston (and Rocky, I think).

I have almost no doubt you will be asking the same question again next year.
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Old 12-15-2013, 01:24 PM   #659
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Right - but Floyd's behaviour is almost identical in other fights. Not literally identical, but very, very similar. But you seem unable to acknowledge this. I don't think you've even mentioned it although I've brought it up multiple times.
Give me a chance! Yes I reviewed the ingo rematch and Floyd just seemed more switched on. He did retreat momentarily in a luring way simular as he did against Sonny but he was more poised (and crucially) was ready to fire with two hands as soon as ingo engaged with him. This is what was absent against Sonny. A double jab instead of a single jab. Ready to counter with a salvo of hooks. God bless him Floyd did try but it was not there, each motion against Sonny he was as keen to get away and re gather. Sonny was still in his head, he looked a bit gun shy.
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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Nah, having spent more time looking into these fights than almost any other living human being his opinion is still of interest. But it doesn't matter - the over-reaching point is your insistence that it's a positive to just vomit up a concrete opinion and insist on its truth when most of the guys who looked into it in great detail when in fact, nobody that has looked into it in any great detail can do that. It's too difficult. Only Toches comes down concrete and he says Liston did not quit dog. Obviously you're not going to believe him, and I take it under advisement also.
it is ok for you to agree with him. I don't. I'm not wriggling out of anything here. A man who wrote a good human interest story about Liston who is not a boxing person watched two fights over and over and you want to take his word, or agree with his opinion. It is still a subject Toches is not as qualified to talk about, especially as he would mislead his readers so badly about key boxing figures in boxing history. All fighters continue injured. Pain thresholds for a writer and a doctor are one thing and what champions can be prepared to go through are another. Having said all that, sure qualified boxing people might think the same thing as Toches and that's ok. Toches approval on its own is worthless. He can talk about the life of a man but he's not a boxing expert. Bob Mee is a real boxing writer at least. And anyway I don't think anyone including myself can say what the truth is.. I have accepted what I think. I think it's most likely he quit, the shoulder was maybe not entirely bogus. Sonny set out to win but realised he could not win both times. Saying we have to accept it is saying we have to accept it. I even remember listening to his corner man (reddish?) saying they had the rematch in the bag so they would just pull out and wait to the rematch. Sonnys corner accepted quitting openly enough.

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well I'll take the opinion of a man who has spent years researching and writing about Liston over yours, which is generally badly informed.
My information comes from the same place as yours. How well informed was Toches when he wrote as gospel that Moore threw the marciano fight?
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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Right. But instead of saying "oh yeah, i'm sorry i accused you of something that wasn't true" you say "he let himself down then." More wriggling.

Of course he let himself down if he was using heroin at this point (and you've overlooked that it can be hot-railed or smoked) but that is not the point. The point is it has been explained to you in great detail prior to this, and even in this thread how he might come to age overnight but you prove consistently unable to absorb new information that might change your bizarre position on Liston (and Rocky, I think).

I have almost no doubt you will be asking the same question again next year.
I really hope we can meet half way on some of this. I don't think the evidence that Sonny was a real alcoholic, to the point of it effecting his health was as strong as some other stuff that can't be proven. I don't think the evidence that Sonny was a functioning smack head by the time he met Cassius Clay is strong at all. Sonny was inactive, evidence is strong on that point. on other posts I have stated that the few rounds of active fighting from 1961-1964 must have effected Liston. Had Liston fought machen again either side of Patterson or Doug Jones or Chuvalo just for the rounds I am sure he would have been better but title fights were once a year during this period.
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Old 12-15-2013, 01:51 PM   #660
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Give me a chance!
"A chance" to watch 120 seconds of footage?

Quote:
Yes I reviewed the ingo rematch
Why? That footage is demonstrating what Floyd gets when he fights in the aggressive fashion you want him to against a puncher. In no way is it meant to represent the non-aggressive tactics Floyd sometimes used agianst hitters, it's the opposite of that. SO this:

Quote:
and Floyd just seemed more switched on. He did retreat momentarily in a luring way simular as he did against Sonny but he was more poised (and crucially) was ready to fire with two hands as soon as ingo engaged with him. This is what was absent against Sonny. A double jab instead of a single jab. Ready to counter with a salvo of hooks. God bless him Floyd did try but it was not there, each motion against Sonny he was as keen to get away and re gather. Sonny was still in his head, he looked a bit gun shy.
Is a total waste of your time.

Quote:
it is ok for you to agree with him.
I don't "agree with him." I take it under advisement. I take possession of the information allowing for the source. I don't dismiss it out of hand like you do. SO far every word you have written is a waste of time, including this six-hundred word rant about Tosches.

Quote:
My information comes from the same place as yours.
I doubt that, you've just been ranting about Tosches, dismissed everyone else out of hand and offered your respects to Mee, probably without having read his book, even though he probably wrote the least well researched book of the lot.

Quote:
I really hope we can meet half way on some of this.
So far, there's nothing to meet you on in this post. It's all just you mis-reading or mis-understanding then waffling for hundreds of words.

Quote:
I don't think the evidence that Sonny was a real alcoholic
I am going to say this to you one more time, and i really, really want you to try to understand:

YOU asked (for the fifth or sixth time since you started posting here), how can Liston have gotten old overnight (or words to that affect)?

I responded (for the fourth or fifth time since you started posting here) with a list of things that might have caused him to age overnight.

Yes, there is evidence of alcoholism. No, there is no concrete proof that he was an alcoholic. Like a series of blood tests or something



Really, I don't know what to say to you any more. Most of your post is completely non-responsive.
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