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Old 04-29-2013, 11:21 AM   #1
McGrain
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Default Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

Let's have your guesses. This is what I got:

1/2 - Johnson & Jeffries
3 - Sam Langford
4 - James J Corbett
5 - Harry Wills
6 - John L Sullivan
7 - Peter Jackson
8 - Bob Fitzsimmons
9 - Joe Jeanette
10-Sam McVey
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

Can't really argue with that. I'd consider Corbett and Wills flippable, but I'm sure you've considered that already.

It's a horrible question though. Really nasty stuff.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

haha right horrible dirty work right enough.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Can't really argue with that. I'd consider Corbett and Wills flippable, but I'm sure you've considered that already.

It's a horrible question though. Really nasty stuff.
according to you, every question is horrible, please Delight us with your great questions
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

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according to you, every question is horrible, please Delight us with your great questions
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

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Originally Posted by heavy_hands View Post
according to you, every question is horrible, please Delight us with your great questions
This is horrible in terms of the answers it deserves and the effort it will take to digest the amount of different opinions that would inevitably surface if this question gets the amount of attention it probably deserves.

Yours are about as thought provoking as my first shit of the day. Just gotta' dismiss it (as noisily as possible) and move on.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

Generaly about right except that Sullivan is too low.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

Bostom Tom Mcmustache should be 1.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

I think that it is by definition reasonable to pick Johnson and Jeffries over Sullivan. Corbett proved a style advantage IMO, and although that isn't definitive, again, it's reasonable. So that leaves Langford & Wills. Wills is considerably bigger and is also unquestionably of the highest class, Langford, also unquestionably of the highest class, knocked out better men than Sullivan and also seems to have a style advantage based upon skill and style whilst sporting the whiskers to survive any mis-haps. I think Sullivan could beat both, but I also think that it is reasonable to see it the other way. That being the case everyone ranked above him might reasonably beat him, and of those below him, Jackson was unquestionably an absolute peer, and Fitzsimmons is perfect for counter-punching his rushing style.

So it isn't until we get to McVey and Jeanette, who I rightly or wrongly consider a sub-class below the other eight that you come to guys Sullivan must, or almost must, be favoured over. Sullivan could be higher, but I think no higher than fifth. I'd happily flip him with Wills but think he should be below Corbett as a matter of course.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

I think Corbett might be one of only three guys on here i would favour over Langford prime for prime. That sort of sneaks him in ahead of Wills for me. Wills might be the man to beat Corbett though, out of the guys that are below him.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

Based on the footage Sam would merc Corbett IMO.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

The thing about Corbett is, he understands distance, he refuses to be drawn, he has a very decent left hand, he has patience he is hugely durable. Plus, he's out-boxed another shorter power-puncher in Sullivan pretty clean. I think he looks better on film than Sam McVey, who has a deeply controversial decision win over a prime Langford, that he earned using some of Corbett's stylings.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

That's fair.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I think that it is by definition reasonable to pick Johnson and Jeffries over Sullivan. Corbett proved a style advantage IMO, and although that isn't definitive, again, it's reasonable. So that leaves Langford & Wills. Wills is considerably bigger and is also unquestionably of the highest class, Langford, also unquestionably of the highest class, knocked out better men than Sullivan and also seems to have a style advantage based upon skill and style whilst sporting the whiskers to survive any mis-haps. I think Sullivan could beat both, but I also think that it is reasonable to see it the other way. That being the case everyone ranked above him might reasonably beat him, and of those below him, Jackson was unquestionably an absolute peer, and Fitzsimmons is perfect for counter-punching his rushing style.

So it isn't until we get to McVey and Jeanette, who I rightly or wrongly consider a sub-class below the other eight that you come to guys Sullivan must, or almost must, be favoured over. Sullivan could be higher, but I think no higher than fifth. I'd happily flip him with Wills but think he should be below Corbett as a matter of course.
Sullivan is hard to judge head to head, for obvious reasons.

As a champion and overall talent he was clearly more in the same category as Jeffries and Johnson, than the same category as Corbett and Fitzsimmons.

In terms of dominance, he is supreme on that list.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: Top ten head to head heavies pre-Dempsey

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Sullivan is hard to judge head to head, for obvious reasons.

As a champion and overall talent he was clearly more in the same category as Jeffries and Johnson, than the same category as Corbett and Fitzsimmons.

In terms of dominance, he is supreme on that list.
I think Sullivan had the ability to be on the Jeffries/Johnson level. I take head-to-head to mean as they were at their actual best. In 1907 Sullivan said, if you could have gotten him and Jeffries together, as each was a ttheir best, no doubt Jeffries would have prevailed. But a few years earlier Sullivan, looking over the current heavy crop, wished he were a young man again. I think in 'if they'd come along at the same time' scenarios, Sullivan is on the same general level as Jeffries and Johnson. But just on what they were when they actually boxed, and how they'd do against each other on that basis, I think Sullivan should be on the next level down.

Quote:
McGrain post#1
Let's have your guesses. This is what I got:

1/2 - Johnson & Jeffries
3 - Sam Langford
4 - James J Corbett
5 - Harry Wills
6 - John L Sullivan
7 - Peter Jackson
8 - Bob Fitzsimmons
9 - Joe Jeanette
10-Sam McVey
I think McGrain picked the right ten, and ordered them reasonably well.
I think Johnson and Jeffries should be in the top two, the next six should be Sullivan, Jackson, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Langford and Wills; the last two McVey and Jeanette. Within each group I think any ordering is defensible.
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